Sunshinedragons

Originally Posted by Valley Dragons

It has not even been proven that an animal that tests positive for adeno can be considered "diseased". Much, much more research needs to be done on this virus and it's affects on bearded dragons.

Jamie

Yes, Jamie, your correct. An animal that has tested positive may not be "diseased", but why chance it??? To use that as an excuse to continue selling positive babies, in my opinion, is irresponsible. Spreading the virus will only contaminate more beardies and allow the virus to get a better hold on the US population. Then IF at a later date, clinical proof is provided that infected animals are indeed "diseased", countless breeders and their facilities will be faced with a serious problem.

Originally Posted by Rebel Dragons

Yes, Jamie, your correct. An animal that has tested positive may not be "diseased", but why chance it??? To use that as an excuse to continue selling positive babies, in my opinion, is irresponsible. Spreading the virus will only contaminate more beardies and allow the virus to get a better hold on the US population. Then IF at a later date, clinical proof is provided that infected animals are indeed "diseased", countless breeders and their facilities will be faced with a serious problem.

Mike, You said that better then I could of

ValleyDragons.com says

Much, much more research needs to be done on this virus and it's affects
I agree that we may potentially have a big problem. But we don't KNOW that

The same response and excuses those spreading IBD and Paramyxo have to anyone that complains about them selling their positive stock AND that a breeder used in 1997-2002 to spread this virus, which is what is infecting most of the ones today. People knew it back then, and kept it hushed up for their reasons.

The experts that actually have worked with this virus in bearded dragons say the same that they also say for paramyxo and IDB

Elliott Jacobson, DVM, PhD, DACZM
Professor of Zoological Medicine
University of Florida

known positive animals should never be sold in the pet trade
in the meantime, with more than 30 years of experience working with reptile pathogens I consider the adenovirus we have seen in bearded dragons a pathogen.

Dr Dan Wentz
Veterinarian
Presentation at the 25th Herpetological Symposium in St Louis

The potential for this disease to devastate your collection is high. If it continues to spread throughout the industry, it could ruin the market. For these reasons, ethical consideration should always be considered if an animal is diagnosed with adenovirus. The main question is should any animal be suspected of or diagnosed with Adenoviral infection be sold or bred? At this time, this author believes the answer is no. Since many of the asymptomatic carriers can live a long and natural life, they can be kept separate. Precautions must be taken to prevent the accidental spread of the virus if one chooses to keep positive animals.

Until we fully understand the pathogenesis of the adenovirus, we should take all the precautions possible to prevent its introduction into our collections or spread to others.

There are many more that I have in emails from these and the other experts that Bruce is suppose to be quoting, but those above are published online with their consent. It is not me saying they should not be sold, it is the experts he claims he is quoting! The difference is we have their full statements online, published with their consent and written by them (not "paraphased" by Bruce) : NoNo :

I agree, lot of questions about this and other reptile virus, all need more study and findings, that is not a question. There is NO question about what is the moral or ethical consideration of selling them to unsuspecting buyer. ValleyDragons, you can applaud that if you like, I will always think the public has a right to know their pets, breeders and income are at risk by someone's irresponsibility and greed

I don't understand this.....someone PLEASE explain to me how it's ok, even if we don't completely understand this virus, to sell dragons that are infected or could be infected? Why would it be ok to let someone walk away with an animal that is sold to them but was never told that the animal could be fatally ill and will most likely spread it to your other animals? This is B.S., it's just a cop out so that you can justify selling them and making more money. Who cares at this point if we understand it or not, it may be years before all is understood regarding this virus, in the mean time don't try to spread it.
NO matter how you look at it, it's wrong. And if you do happen to be one of those people who can justify selling sick and contagious animals, then you don't deserve to being called a breeder.

To all:

For the last few days we have been reading all that was posted and have done as much research as possible when it comes to the Adenovirus...and to tell you the truth there is not a lot of information on Adeno which we are sure most of you have found out.....no one really knows how it is transmitted from one host to another...airborn or fecal/oral....but one thing is sure, if this is not isolated and is continued to be spread the only one who looses is the Bearded Dragons...what we are saying that is everyone who has beardies, owes it to themselves, their pets, their business and most importantly to the beardies to have them checked.....and if they do come back positive, the beardie needs to be destroyed or donated to research...and not be sold to anyone no matter what...all it takes is one infected and if bred could produce a full blown outbreak....does anyone want to see the beardie hit the endangered species list....we think not...we have discussed the possibilities of what if one of our breeders or pets has the virus, which I am sure all of you have done the same....we have contacted our local vet that we work with and they can run the test for $130.00 per sample and we have scheduled to start testing in the near future....if one is positive then it will be put down or donated....expensive yes but that goes with the territory....

THIS HAS TO BE DONE to stop the spread of the virus, we cant wait for research to determine the cause or the cure ..it will be to late by then and the only one who looses is the Bearded Dragon.

We are new to the business and have acquired some very nice dragons from some of the nicest breeders on the market today....Dachiu, Dragons Den, Dragons Whisper, ect..ect.. and we run a rescue center for unwanted and abused reptiles, it has been a very expensive investment to acquire what we have at this point and to care for our collection of reptiles and rescues, I spend about a quarter of my pay check every month to care for pets but I knew that going into it....and we have made mistakes along the way...everyone does but the biggest mistake anyone could do is knowing that what they are doing could destroy the future of beardies by not doing what has to be done.....Bruce you have to ask yourself "Are you in it for the money or are you in it for the Dragons so they may continue to be the number one pet on the reptile market today...key word "pet" not "paycheck". If you know you have host for the virus weather it only tested positive 1 out of 10 test, it still tested positive once and the risk is there, there should be no questioning what should be done and has to be done....don't just live for the day but think about the future of the Bearded Dragon...

We all cant stop the outbreak unless we all test everything we have no matter the cost...easy for us to say we don't have that many to be checked unlike Bruce or any of the top breeders in the nation..but it has to be done...its the only way to try to control the spread of the virus...but everyone has to do it...everyone...because all it takes is one to infect future generations to come....all of our reptiles are pets to us and part of our family and the thought of having to destroy a family member destroys us but it has to be done......no if's, and's or but's about it..

Someone needs to start a vet search for each state that can test for Adeno..let them know what is going on and ask if there can be something worked out as far as price to have all beardies checked and that information needs to be shared, and beardies need to be checked and the proper action needs to be done after results come back.....

As I stated before we are a small, tight budgeted operation but we would be more than happy to donate a portion of our procedes from each purchase to the facility doing the most research on Adeno to speed up the process of finding a cause or cure for the virus...just need to know where is the top facility doing the research is....anyone know?

We have read the post as I stated before and all we see is a lot of, he said, she said, I said, they said, going back and forth but no one has said what is going to be done about it...why not....?

Keep in mind all that the larger breeders are going to have a huge expense to have this done and may need help...they may have to raise there prices for a while to cover the expense of having their entire collection checked..but it is only fair considering that they have been passing on savings to the public to stay in business...we would be more than happy to pay an extra $25.00 for a purchase if it means the money is going to the expense of having their breeders checked as long as the results of the virus check are available upon request.

To make a mistake knowing you did and do nothing about is the biggest mistake of all.


Sincerely yours,

Travis
Lair of Dragons

We don't even know this person never knew us!

Subject: Re: just some support-
Date: 11/3/2006 12:40:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time


Bruce,

I am giving you my permission to post the contents of my email to you. I thank you in advance for keeping my personal information confidential.


Sunshinedragons,
I felt compelled to write to you concerning the adeno issue. I keep bearded dragons. I read the forums but I am not up on the "who is who". I have read most of the posts concerning this issue and in keeping with the idea of "just the facts" I have to say that my heart goes out to you. I won't even try to write all the things that bother me about this. I will say that I am glad that you are not killing your dragons, even the "healthy ones" just because you can't sell them. I think that is horrible.
I commend you for your apology. I can't imagine being attacked in the manner that you have been. IF the adenovirus is as bad as "they" think then how can anyone sell any dragon to anyone whether it has been tested or not?
Based on what I have read so far, I really feel for you and I wish you success and hope your business thrives in spite of what I would have to agree is a "witch hunt". Whenever something like this comes up the general public wants a fall guy. It must make them feel better on some level, who knows. I will do my best to keep my circle of friends who own bearded dragons(that don’t belong to or participate in the forums!) informed of the FACTS about the adenovirus.


Thank you for your time

---------------------------------------
Again, let every breeder test then.

>>Show us the sick diseased Dragons we sold, show us the mortalities. In thirteen pages, not one single person posted they ever received a small, unhealthy, sick, or diseased Dragon.!!!!!!!!!


>>Just the opposite, all we recieve is how big, beautiful, and healthy our Dragons are. When all the Breeders test all their Dragons >>don't pick us out!
BIG, HEALTHY, BEAUTIFUL DRAGONS & ONLY RUMORS, INNUEDOS OF UNHEALTHY ONES. >>Show us the sick, diseased Dragons we sold, and to who. Not a he said she said, or I heard....yet directly from anyone. Not one single Post about sick or ill Dragons from Sunshinedragons...>>>>>Let everyone Test!!!!!

Bruce Kalish

Wow, I guess I just became part of the witch hunt, lol. I can practically see the mob waving their pitchforks at me now...

Despite the words that Mike so kindly put in my mouth, I DID NOT say that it is okay to sell positive babies. Mike, that is an assumption about me that you made all on your own, and several people jumped in on the conversation basing their responses on your post to me (Bill, Ceri, whiskersmom). Please loose the mob mentality and read each post as a seperate entity, and try to see through your own opinions to what is actually written.

I DO NOT think it is okay to start slaughtering positive animals without much more research being done on this virus. Testing your dragons is a good idea in theory (I plan to do it out of curiousity), but at this point, we don't even know if one test is even enough to confirm an infection. And we don't even know if infection causes illness...so why kill your dragons? If we are going to start singleing out and pressuring certain breeders then we should ALL stop selling, because ANY of us could potentially have this virus in our APPRARENTLY HEALTHY stock and not know it. That means you, me, and the rest of the dragon breeders out there. If so and so doctor is right and we have a potentially horrible disease that can wipe out all of our bearded dragons, then why would anyone in their right mind EVER buy or sell a dragon until more research can be done? Tell me, do the rest of you plan to continue selling?

Jamie

What does posting an email that doesn't have a signature, that could have been written by you, prove?
Why does anyone have to come forward to prove that this exists.......you say you want to see the sick, dying, diseased animal owners come forward and post. Well, you're posting aren't you? You've had how many die off in the last year? And what did they all die of?
Just look at all the ones that died (not euthanized) in Wendy's colony. Bearded dragons do die because of this virus and all that's been asked of you is to stop distributing them. And if you are going to continue then just inform the buyer. No one is saying to put your healthy animals down, or to just give up your business....all that is wanted is for you and other breeders to have your adult breeding dragons tested, if positive, don't breed them.
What are you afraid of, Bruce? Are you afraid that you're going to find out that they are all infected? Just have them tested and then don't sell infected babies without first telling the buyer.

E-Mails sunshinedragons recieved directly From Sherri Whiskers Mom

Help us out with this one. Your own Vet tells you it is one of the healthiest Dragons he has ever seen. You say you aren't concerned, and then you join the mob!!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi, I was wondering if you had gotten back the results on the Adenovirus? I bought Whiskers from you last year, he was from Pyro and Studly, July 27th 2005.
I will be getting him tested if the results from you are positive, I would hate for him to have it and me not know, then unknowingly allow him around another dragon.

Thanks,
Sherri

By the way....Whiskers, son of Pyro and Studly, woke up today for a bit from brumation. I weighed him and thought you would like to know that he is 22" long and weighs 728 grams. His vet says he's one of healthiest dragons he has seen in a long time. I'm not overly concerned about this virus, just thought I should try to keep myself informed - thanks again.

Sherri

In a message dated 10/23/2006 12:17:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sherrisworld2000@yahoo.com writes:

From what I've read about Adeno, I never was really concerned that Whiskers had it, he's always been healthy except for a bout of pinworms.
Thanks for the compliment, I believe Lauren once told me that you guys had considered keeping Whiskers as a holdback, he is a beautiful dragon, with a great personality, from the start. You guys did an awsome job.

Jon,
That's great that your dad is impressed, but it's from Sunshines beardies that produced such a good looking boy! You guys deserve most of the credit! I admit, I have always tried to provide him with the best of care but if it weren't for great genetics, he wouldn't be what he is!!!!
Thank you for the offer, that is very generous of you. Know that which ever beardie you decide to send my way, it will be taken care of the same as Whiskers.

Sherri

Ok?????? I already had posted those a few pages back. And I wasn't concerned until you and I entered an agreement for me to take one of your females for a breeding project and found out that you were sending me a baby whose father had died of questionable causes.
Again....yes, Whiskers is healthy. Does that mean he does not have Adeno? No. If he does have it, I want to know so that I don't breed him. If he doesn't have it, I want to know so that I can breed him to a dragon that has been tested negative also.
I have not joined the mob, I started this thread, remember? I had specific questions I needed answered and in the interim have realized I have more. You don't answer questions, you dance around them.