Exotics-r-us/ Ray Hunter/ Ricky D

Just so I have the facts . You did not report this withen 24 hours correct. That is a violation of there terms of service I have read them and it is spelled out very clear.

On the subject of their TOS you say you have delt with them many times so you obviously are aware of their TOS. So why did you not reprot this in a timely manner.

Next you bring up the bags. Many people reuse shipment bags for cost efficancy so it is highly possible to have recieved the animals in bags from any number of shipments. As importers I am sure they have lots of bags around.

As to the weight of the gaboon if you have delt with wild caught imports you know as well as anyone who has purchased them that many times they come in underweight from the exporter for any number of reasons. Reguardless if it has been in country 2 months or not it will take some time to put a repectable healthy weight back on them.

Next Ray is an Employee not the owner . He has to do what his employer has instructed him to do.

Now let us get to the venomoid subject. If you are doing the surgery you know there is a very high mortality rate on these animals so my question is first are you a licensed vet. do your facilities meet all the federal guidelines and laws for sanitary conditions in Pre-op , Surgery and Post-op. Secound question is how many fatalities do you have in your freezer? Anyone can take a picture of a dead animal and report it later and hope someone will buy in to the story. So it goes back to the 24 hour TOS. You did not report it so why should they believe you.

If you are a licensed VET which you have to be to preform the surgery then you have access to the proper medication to treat animals with URI's and have most likely friends that are vets that if you can't treat them they possibly can. So why let the animals just die if you have the ability and staff to save them. I have seen very sever cases treated and the animals are still to this day doing very well.

Now you yourself from what I see contacted him 3 days after this shipment arrived. His terms clearly state 24 hours. Also you bring up that he was going to give you some sort of credit even after the 24 hour terms was up. As none of us were there for the conversation we only have your word to what it was. Regaurdless of what it was they were willing to offer you something.

Thank you for your answers when you have time to post them.


Scott Bice

That's what I was getting at. I'm kinda curious whether any of these animals went under the knife of a "wannabee" vet before they died.
I'm wondering how a unqualified, self taught surgeon is able to acquire the anesthesia (which is a controlled substance), analgesics and antibiotics that would be needed to perform such an invasive surgery.
Regardless of anyone's position on venomoids, it's a procedure that should be performed only be a qualified reptile veterinary surgeon (if at all). The guys who perform these surgeries in their garage without the knowledge, training, sterile equipment and necessary meds are pure scumbags.
If Kevin is performing these surgeries without a veterinary license it reflects poorly on his ethics and credibility. While it may not be relevant to this specific transaction it makes his accusations less credible to me.

This isn't related to venomous reptiles, but the exotics r us stock I recieved (a pair of ETB's) is doing wonderfully, was parasite free, and eating well. In defense of the company's imported stock I have had no problems whatsoever. Just thought I'd make my experience with exotics r us stock public after 4 months or so in my care. Eric Lago

The below is a copy of an e-mail that I received from Kevin this morning, as well as my responces to some of his issues. My favorite part is wher he writes that he still thinks I am a "good guy" after trying to blast me by calling me names (scumbag, etc) and trying to fabricate friction between my boss and I (which Ricky and I find humorous, as we are getting along better than ever). The stuff with a > is Kevin's writing, followed by my responce. Thanks all.



----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Smith" <oreganus@hotmail.com>
To: <RayHunter@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 1:14 AM
Subject: Ray


> Ray,
>
> Okay, I'll be your huckleberry and email you privately. Number one, let me
> just say first off, I was not going to post anything about you on the BOI,
> until you told us that you weren't replacing anything, even though the
> animals were sick and emaciated.

Kevin, We could not care less about you posting on the BOI. It just blew me away that you got on there and lied so much. If you would have presented the FACTS of the issue as they were, and not tried to inflame them to try and make me or Ricky look bad, then I would have maintained my respect for you.

I have always said that it probably wasn't
> you and that Ricky was probably the one that wasn't letting you take care of
> the situation.

I have NEVER "Blaimed or Pushed" anything off on Ricky, and you know that. Ricky is the owner of this business, and if he chooses to go by the set and documented rules of his own business, he is perfectly within his right to do so, and nothing I can say will change that. I just work here, I don't make the rules. I have to follow the rules that Ricky sets, just like you do at your job.

I have always tried to make the best of the situation, I
> have had to cover a considerable amount of the animals that have been sick
> and died, I have had to take alot of time to nurse the animals back to
> health when they have came in being in bad condition. I have always done my
> best to make the best of the situation and not say anything. But this time
> you were told that it was not Ken's money or my money we were taking a hit
> on. We both explained to you the condition of the animals and what was
> going on.

You are not new to this business. You guys KNOW that if you report a problem withing the first 24 hours, we will take care of it, NOT 4-10 days latter!!! If the snakes looked as bad as you claim, you should have called me or Ricky or at least send us an e-mail (that is free to you). Even after the four days, I still said that we would make good on the claim, even though we are not obligated to do so. I NEVER told you or Ken that we would not make good on the initial claim. You Lied in you tantrum post about this to try to make us look bad. And who did I hang up the phone on??? what is that lie about??? I only had one conversation with you on the phone and it was a civil on that ended on a good note. I NEVER hung up on you or Ken and you know that. If your case is so good, you would not have to lie about it to make yourselves look better.

If you and Ricky are not getting along, that is your business,
> but don't expect not to take some of the heat yourself when you put yourself
> in a situation like this.

I have no idea what you keep harping about here. Ricky and I have never gotten along any better than we are now. So I don't know what you are trying to instigate by all this crap. I NEVER say ANYTHING derogatory about Ricky, nor would I. The ONLY time I mentioned Ricky is when I said that He is the company owner, and his decission is final. That is not saying anything to put blame on Ricky, that is simply stating a fact. He is the boss, I do what he says, just like you do at your job.
I don't care what Ed had to say, because he is a
> liar and a thief, he has talked [bleep] behind my back, sold both Ken's and my
> animals behind our backs and has never paid us back for anything that he
> owes us. He offered ken's snakes to several people trying to get money out
> of animals that weren't his. That is not your fault, you didn't know Ed was
> like that and you didn't know what kind of person he was.

Ed is just one person that told me how you are. There are many more that said the same things. I never gave it much thought until you showed me in your post how you are. I was advised a long time ago not to sell you any more animals, but I made the decission to do it anyway. There are too many discrepancies between your stories and Ken's, and now I see why. I feel Ken is an honest person, and until he give me reason to feel otherwise, I believe that.

It really doesn't
> matter though, what does matter is that it isn't right to send out sick
> animals that are on their deathbeds,

That is rediculus. I send you guys the best that I have because of my relationship with Ken. Why would I send sick animals to someone that is as good of a customer as Ken has been??? Use some common sence.

and then hide behind the live arrival
> only garauntee. That is simply messed up.

I am not hiding behind anything. The world is full of rules that we all have to obey. Do you operate like this when you go out to eat??? If the food is not good, do you wait 4 days to complain to the manager, and ask for your money back??? You are a grown man, not a kid. Take some responcibility for your actions (or lack of).

And it is very wrong to not
> replace the animals and make ken and I pay for something that wasn't our
> faults. If it is Ricky that is the one that is responsible, then put him on
> the net to defend himself, but at least be truthful about the whole thing,
> that is way more valuable then any money in the world. I don't lie about
> anything, I always tell the truth about things and I will not lower myself
> to tell lies about anything, no matter how much money is involved.

Kevin, come on. Your posts are full of lies and you know it. I am not going to sit here and spell them all out. You know what you did and what you lied about. I will not sit here and argue with you after you have shown me and everyone I know that you DO lie, and are not an honest person. Say whatever you want, but don't expect me to play childish games on the internet with you.

I still
> think that you are a good person and I do believe that Ricky is the one
> behind all of this selling shady animals and not replacing them, but man,
> what do you expect me to say when my friend and I have to make up for this
> crap out of our own pocket. I was told to post on the BOI about the whole
> situation and I have to stand by my friends, that is what friends do, but I
> will not lie for them. I hate for this stupid [bleep] to come down to this,
> especially over animals that cost ricky about $200-300 all together. It is
> just really sad.
> Kevin
>
You are not very consistant here, Kevin. You are calling me all kinds of names on a public forum, and lying to everyone to make yourself look better, and fabricating friction between Ricky and I that does not exist, THEN you type in this e-mail to me that you still think I am a good person. BTW, Of course we reuse shipping bags!!! Duhh! Do you think we would throw away hundreds of shipping bags when we get shipments in, and sit around sewing our own, We do wash them, the re-use them, but it is possible that some could still be stained. That was a silly and week point of yours (but it looks like everyone saw through your trick. I am sorry it came to this also. Doing what you did in your dishonest way only makes it worse. Post anything you want, Those that know me and Ricky know better, so lying will do nothing to make us look bad. All the calls and e-mails I got about your posts show that people know better. All the best to you.



Please Call 772-215-7625 if you need any info.

Be Blessed!
Ray Hunter
d.b.a. Hunter Serpentology
www.cobraman.net
772-215-7625

Now that Ray has successfully turned it to a venomoid issue, which if you read my post above, I forewarned that was the intentions, I sell venomoids, YES, but now I am the bad guy because of that and it no longer matters what I say, I am simply the bad guy and Ray Hunter is the great guy. Even though he has lied on this forum over and over again, I don't expect you to believe only me, because it is his word against mine. But that is okay, because I have:
3 gabbies
1 mozambique(actually I threw it out)
1 redneck spitter
2 egyptians(1 baby, 1 subadult)

All in the freezer. I will take pictures and weights, plus I will have others come over at look at the conditions of the animals. And if there is anyone that would like to have them to test for exactly what kind of illness these guys were suffering from besides the supposed 8 weeks of neglect, they are free to do so. We have done alot of business with Ray and have had this problem before, but were compensated for the most part. I have also talked to others that are going through the same problems, hopefully they will post on here also, but realize that if they don't, not everyone is willing to take the heat that they get for posting a bad experience. NONE OF THE SNAKES WERE ALTERED, ALL ARE FULLY INTACT, THERE WAS NOTHING DONE TO THE SNAKES BESIDES SETTING THEM UP IN WARM CAGES WITH WATER BOWLS. I know that this is simply one word against the other, but that DOESN'T EXPLAIN A GABBY GOING INTO SEIZURES AND DYING AND THAT DOES NOT EXPLAIN THE POOR CONDITIONS IN WHICH THE SNAKES CAME IN, OR THE FACT THAT SO MANY SNAKES HAVE DIED FROM THE TIME THAT THEY CAME IN. So everyone feel free to jump on my ass about dealing with venomoids, because that is the real issue, right? Not the fact that we were lied to, half the snakes died that Ray sent, and that they were in extremely poor condtion? I simply posted my experience with these guys, we have dealt with them alot, and have lost some snakes from them in this way, but never to this extent and never have not been compensated. You can bet, that if I sold this many snakes to one of you and they started dropping like flies like this, every one of you would be posting me on here, so why the hell do you have such a problem with me posting about MY EXPERIENCE. It is kind of funny, people bitch on here about crummy importers,sick snakes,and then you are so quick to jump on someone else when they post a bad experience. I said before, if you people that are "good" buddies with Ray want to buy from the guys, go ahead, but don't shoot me down for posting MY BAD EXPERIENCE WITH THEM. It is done and over with, I posted MY EXPERIENCE with them, and I made the mistake and will NEVER DEAL WITH THEM AGAIN. I will go to Exotic Jungle, glades,strictly, or some other company that I know for a fact sell good animals. My point of posting this wasn't to magically get my money back, it was simply to warn everyone about my experience with Ray. I am not going to reply except to post pictures and info about the animals that died. I am not going to sit here and have an arguement about venomoids or anything else that DOESN't have to do with the sick animals that Ray sent. Oh yeah, YOU'RE RIGHT, I AM WRONG FOR NOT CALLING THEM WITHIN THE 24HOURS, BUT THAT IS PRETTY SHADY TO SEND OUT ANIMALS IN THIS CONDITION AND THEN HIDE BEHIND THAT POLICY. I HAVE NEVER KNOWN RESPECTABLE DEALER THAT WOULD NOT TAKE CARE OF A PROBLEM LIKE THIS. BUT THEN AGAIN, I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANOTHER DEALER THAT WOULD SEND OUT THE GARBAGE ANIMALS THAT THESE GUYS WOULD.
KEvin Smith

Reusing bags does not count when the animals never left the bags! "They might be stained"????? RAY, FYI, THERE WAS LOADS OF DRIED,OLD, CRUSTY, CRAP IN THE BAGS WITH THE GABBIES. HOW ABOUT THE SEIZURES THERE RAY? HOW ABOUT THE FACT THAT THEY WERE SUPPOSE TO BE A LARGE PAIR OF GABBIES AND ONE WAS FIVE FOOT AND ONE WAS NOT QUITE TWO FOOT??? YES, you can sit here and tell everyone I am lying and we can go back and forth, but I am not going to. I posted my bad experience with you and you lied your butt off to try and save face. That is fine, I hoped it worked for you, but that doesn't change the fact that you sent out crappy animals and then were hidden behind your(or excuse me, RICKY's) 24 hour policy. There was just nothing else for you to do this time, you couldn't excuse lying about the condition of the animals or the fact that half of them died, except blaiming me and saying that my facility is tainted. I would seriously recommend taking care of your problems with the others that are going through the same crap with you, or they might end up posting on here too. AND FOR THE RECORD, I was not trying to cause friction between you and Ricky, you are the one that was running your mouth to people about it, after you sent them crappy animals and needed a scapegoat. But that is okay, you and I and the others that you have said stuff to know what was really said. Like I said, I am not going to sit here and go back and forth, I will post more facts,pictures,and info about the animals you sent and nothing else. I am not going to get into the venomoid thing with you. You couldn't make money at it because you tried to get crap animals fixed, so now you are suddenly full on against venomoids. FOR THE RECORD OFCOURSE.
Kevin Smith

I sell venomoids, YES, but now I am the bad guy because of that and it no longer matters what I say

Whether you are a bad guy for selling venomoids is up to each individual to decide. However, if you or your partner is playing mad scientist by altering these animals yourself and doing surgeries in your garage without a veterinary license.....the answer is yes, you are worse then a bad guy.
Of course, you still haven't admitted that you are the one that is hacking at the heads of these snakes.

I am simply the bad guy and Ray Hunter is the great guy.

I never said that. I just said that you aren't very credible because you are performing illegal surgeries on animals in order to sell them for an inflated price. In other words, you are profitting from doing backwoods surgeries that you have no business to be doing. If they are aware that you're doing this and they still continue to sell you snakes, they are just as bad.
This isn't a pro-venomoid vs. anti-venomoid debate. This is the case of a unqualified hack playing surgeon with living animals.

Chris,

This is the one and only time I will respond to this on this thread. I do not sell "hack up" garbage, No one is playing "mad scientist", and this is NOT THE ISSUE AT HAND, NOR IS RELAVENT TO THE FACT THAT WE WERE SENT GARBAGE ANIMALS AND LIED TO FROM RAY. That is what this post was about. As far as your "qualified vet" debate that you are so hung up on. Have you seen the animals that are operated on by these so called "PROFESSIONALS", let me say this loud and clear so you can try and grasp the concept, just because someone has a license, DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THEY KNOW WHAT THE HELL THEY ARE DOING! This is just another excuse that anti venomoiders like to come up with. They have no problem if the surgery is performed wrong or if the animals looks like crap, as long as a LICENSED VET did it. The only thing I am going to say about the surgery is that it takes years and years to be able to do the surgery right consistently, just because someone is a licensed vet, doesn't mean they know what the heck they are doing. I have seen vets that have killed reptiles out of pure ignorance, just because they had a license didn't mean they were qualified to do the procedures. I am not going to drag anyone into this thread to be crucified by the "mob" on here, I will say that all of the animals I sell are top notch, the surgery was performed correctly, and they are all 100% or I would not sell them.
Kevin Smith

While I have not personally bought from Ray as of yet, I know many people who deal with him and have had no problems whatsoever. All animals were in perfect conditions when I saw them.

Joe Switalski

While since you aren't a licensed vet, what are you using for anesthesia when you cut into these snakes?
How are you able to get analgesics or antibiotics for their post-op recovery?
What kind of autoclave do you use to sterilize your surgical equiptment?

That's what I thought....no I think the term "hackjob" fits your illegal practice well.