Jon Levey owner of Jon's Jungle

After reading this thread:
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ad.php?t=29056

I can see similarities in my situation and the O.P. of that threads situation see David there is another account of him not having the animals he had up for sale.

Much of this discussion centers around the fact that John Levey didn't actually have the snake when he sold it to Tim. While the reptile business chooses to call these people "flippers" I'd rather think of them as "drop-shippers." They have no product, only a web site with stock photos (or email forwarded photos) that make them look like legit producers. I cannot participate in the condemnation of John Levey as one of these people because I don't know him but I do know others who use this as their business model.

A drop-shipper (flipper) can't say to Tim, "I don't have that in stock, I have to order it", because it immediately reveals to Tim that he is paying a middle-man, not the actual animal producer. Knowing that you are paying a middle-man puts a bad taste in your mouth because you know that could have obtained this animal from the true source at a price less than you are paying the flipper.

But therein lies the conundrum: the drop-shipper usually has a volume relationship with the supplier that allows them to obtain the animal at a deep discount; a price lower than the actual supplier would normally sell directly to the public for. This means that the supplier is a wholesaler. The wholesaler has a retail storefront (probably just a web page) that does limited business because the sticker prices are high. So he sells in large volume to drop-shippers who advertise his products as their own. The increased sales volume obtained by the wholesaler increases the drop-shippers buying power (e.g his buying margins get better). As a result the drop-shipper is able to offer the same animal for a lower price than the actual owner of the animal.

The circle completed itself when Tim shopped for and found the best price for an Ivory ($1,100 is a steal as far as I'm concerned). He would not have received the runaround from the actual producer of the animal but he would have had to pay an elevated price tag to obtain the animal. In the end I suspect that Tim's price was pretty close to equal what he would have paid had he gone direct to the source.

The problem is so multi-faceted. Tim initially went to John because he had the best price. This allows John to buy yet more quantity from the wholesaler, thereby further strengthening their relationship and bettering John's ability to buy at a discount. Because getting the best price at the moment of sale is often more important than developing relationships Tim never buys directly from the producer so he never builds the rapport/relationship necessary to earn price breaks similar to those of the drop-shipper. It's a cycle that is decreasing the value of the reptile market because the drop-shipper prices are based on their margins, not on an animal's worth. They are all too happy to sell an animal at a "discount" off retail because they purchased the animal for way below that value.

I am guilty of what Tim did. I have been through the drop-shipper more than once. Getting the best price is a powerful motivator.

As a reptile breeder I need to buy from other reptile breeders, not from flippers/drop-shippers. I'm supporting my own kind if I do. Yes, I may pay a little more for the first few animals but I will eventually develop a rapport and a relationship with the breeder that gets me better prices. I wish I could readily identify professional flippers/drop-shippers. I think I'm fed up enough with the ball python business price declines to start paying higher prices to real breeders so I can get rid of the flippers.

Imagine if the real breeders organized against the full-time flippers (reptile dealers with no stock of their own) the way we have against HR 669. They'd be out in a month. Now that would be nice.

So Tim, I think what happened to you sucks. Fortunately the animal was worth the pain and heartache. But if you knowingly chose to buy from a flipper you should have anticipated at least part of what happened to you (sorry to not completely side with you on this one).

And yes, I know this is a bit off topic as to whether or not John is a bad guy but I would like to talk more about this if anyone is interested.

And yes, I also know that the "middle man" model is the basis of huge portions of our economy. But the ball python community is not so big that it requires middle-men. We can still buy direct.

Best Regards,

Colin Weaver

Originally Posted by ColinWeaver

Much of this discussion centers around the fact that John Levey didn't actually have the snake when he sold it to Tim. While the reptile business chooses to call these people "flippers" I'd rather think of them as "drop-shippers." They have no product, only a web site with stock photos (or email forwarded photos) that make them look like legit producers. I cannot participate in the condemnation of John Levey as one of these people because I don't know him but I do know others who use this as their business model.

A drop-shipper (flipper) can't say to Tim, "I don't have that in stock, I have to order it", because it immediately reveals to Tim that he is paying a middle-man, not the actual animal producer. Knowing that you are paying a middle-man puts a bad taste in your mouth because you know that could have obtained this animal from the true source at a price less than you are paying the flipper.



But therein lies the conundrum: the drop-shipper usually has a volume relationship with the supplier that allows them to obtain the animal at a deep discount; a price lower than the actual supplier would normally sell directly to the public for. This means that the supplier is a wholesaler. The wholesaler has a retail storefront (probably just a web page) that does limited business because the sticker prices are high. So he sells in large volume to drop-shippers who advertise his products as their own. The increased sales volume obtained by the wholesaler increases the drop-shippers buying power (e.g his buying margins get better). As a result the drop-shipper is able to offer the same animal for a lower price than the actual owner of the animal.

The circle completed itself when Tim shopped for and found the best price for an Ivory ($1,100 is a steal as far as I'm concerned). He would not have received the runaround from the actual producer of the animal but he would have had to pay an elevated price tag to obtain the animal. In the end I suspect that Tim's price was pretty close to equal what he would have paid had he gone direct to the source.

The problem is so multi-faceted. Tim initially went to John because he had the best price. This allows John to buy yet more quantity from the wholesaler, thereby further strengthening their relationship and bettering John's ability to buy at a discount. Because getting the best price at the moment of sale is often more important than developing relationships Tim never buys directly from the producer so he never builds the rapport/relationship necessary to earn price breaks similar to those of the drop-shipper. It's a cycle that is decreasing the value of the reptile market because the drop-shipper prices are based on their margins, not on an animal's worth. They are all too happy to sell an animal at a "discount" off retail because they purchased the animal for way below that value.

I am guilty of what Tim did. I have been through the drop-shipper more than once. Getting the best price is a powerful motivator.

As a reptile breeder I need to buy from other reptile breeders, not from flippers/drop-shippers. I'm supporting my own kind if I do. Yes, I may pay a little more for the first few animals but I will eventually develop a rapport and a relationship with the breeder that gets me better prices. I wish I could readily identify professional flippers/drop-shippers. I think I'm fed up enough with the ball python business price declines to start paying higher prices to real breeders so I can get rid of the flippers.

Imagine if the real breeders organized against the full-time flippers (reptile dealers with no stock of their own) the way we have against HR 669. They'd be out in a month. Now that would be nice.

So Tim, I think what happened to you sucks. Fortunately the animal was worth the pain and heartache. But if you knowingly chose to buy from a flipper you should have anticipated at least part of what happened to you (sorry to not completely side with you on this one).

And yes, I know this is a bit off topic as to whether or not John is a bad guy but I would like to talk more about this if anyone is interested.

And yes, I also know that the "middle man" model is the basis of huge portions of our economy. But the ball python community is not so big that it requires middle-men. We can still buy direct.

Best Regards,

Colin Weaver

Colin, You are a Major Blow hard! But, I think I'm getting you now.. Carry On Sir!!

Just got a text from Jon asking me if I was "blasting" him. Now I don't think I was blasting Jon and I told him as much I said that we are adults and he should come here and state his side of this as there is always 2 sides of the story. But as of his last text saying i was rediculous, and good luck 2 me, in his words so I doubt he will come. I stated only the truth I have no reason to lie, I have only gotten good BP's from him but in the instance his communication sucked but as was found in another thread it has before.

OK, If I am to believe the OP and am reading correctly
:A Payment, in full, of $1,100 was made by buyer on the 6th via a direct deposit to the seller bank, instead of Paypal, at the seller's request, for the sellers convenience, drastically reducing buyers chances of recovering money if something went wrong, and this transaction was agreed to by buyer in order to acquire the snake as soon as possible. The buyer was also expected to have a better working knowledge of seller's website and prices than seller? Then seller gives buyer run-around, quite literally for the next 9 days, all the while not knowing whether or not the animal is actually in possession of the seller and the buyer is basically forced to drive down there to pick up the snake in order to complete long, drawn out deal.
I wouldn't consider the seller a "Bad Guy" per se, but his business practices are sketchy at best and to be avoided at all costs...IMHO.

Good points Colin, Although I would like to point out that there is a difference between a Flipper and a Drop-Shipper as far as dealing with reptiles, and I think it's a pretty big one:

Flippers at one point actually take possession of the "product" whereas Drop-Shippers typically don't ever physically touch it ( it is shipped from producer directly to buyer) the scheming "middlemen" don't have to touch it with their grimy meathooks...lol

Why this is a big deal is that the "product" is living, breathing animal. The more an animal is moved the more stressed it is, the more variable environments it is in, the higher the potential for exposure to mites...IBD...and other forms of disease, abuse and neglect.
I would think that the breeders/producers have a more vested interest in maintaining the well being of their animal versus the "Flippers" and their slimy paws...

Originally Posted by ForkedTung

Good points Colin, Although I would like to point out that there is a difference between a Flipper and a Drop-Shipper as far as dealing with reptiles, and I think it's a pretty big one:

Flippers at one point actually take possession of the "product" whereas Drop-Shippers typically don't ever physically touch it ( it is shipped from producer directly to buyer) the scheming "middlemen" don't have to touch it with their grimy meathooks...lol

touché

Originally Posted by jasballs

Colin, You are a Major Blow hard! But, I think I'm getting you now.. Carry On Sir!!

That's an eloquent insult. Nice. Funny thing is that I don't talk much in person.

Originally Posted by Royal Morphz

He said he would try, and then told me that he was looking at his site and that the price on his site said 1200! I immediately went to his site and saw that not only did it say 1200, but his site was completed at this time.

Just to help clear this part up. It did state 1150 and then it was changed.

On April 6th Google crawled his page. The price was $1150.
This is the cached page for that day.
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us

On April 9th Google crawled his site again. The price had changed to 1200.

Here is the page for that day.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us

This is Google's cache of http://jonsjungle.com/ball.php. It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on Apr 6, 2009 06:29:34 GMT. The current page could have changed in the meantime. Learn more

Text-only version
These search terms are highlighted: ivory These terms only appear in links pointing to this page: jonsjungle com

...........

Originally Posted by jasballs

I was told in 05' at Daytona to never buy from him.. Sad thing is I was told that by one of his Suppliers! Glad I listened

3rd party anonymous quotation - name your source please.