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Board of Inquiry® This forum is provided exclusively for the discussion of specific persons or businesses in the herp industry. |
05-06-2012, 09:57 AM
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#111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bullies&balls
I think it was stated that only 2 or 3 girls were paired with this animal. As well as a couple from the OP. That would fit a 3 day rotation if he wasn't breeding and left in with a female before been moved to another.
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just for the record it was in with 2 different females but did not , i repeat did not lock up or breed to either females it did nothing here except die in 10 days. so there was no constriction of the snake at all it had stayed away from the females at opposite ends of the cb 70 tub
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05-06-2012, 10:00 AM
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#112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomas raspoptsis
just for the record it was in with 2 different females but did not , i repeat did not lock up or breed to either females it did nothing here except die in 10 days. so there was no constriction of the snake at all it had stayed away from the females at opposite ends of the cb 70 tub
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brandon had only 2 mojave females at his house,
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05-06-2012, 11:18 AM
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#113
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Concerning the diagnosis, internal ulcers are not the same as external and the type specified by the necropsy report were in the intestinal tract (large and small intestines), which has numerous bacteria (like salmonella) and digestive enzymes which contribute to ulceration in larger amounts than normal. Most, if not all reptiles, have an increased amount of these digestive enzymes to digest whole prey items, carion, and detritis that all carry an increased number of bacteria (think of it as increased stomach acid to kill the bacteria and make it safe for the animal to eat). So the point that the ulcers were caused at day 3, or before shipping is moot. We don't know, the vet doesn't know, so it's open to speculation. The only exception to this would be IF the vet had told Xavier that the ulcers were EXTREMELY large. That would be the closest to proof that they were preexisting.
Just because an animal gets sick once, does NOT mean it has a higher potential to get sick again. In fact, sometimes it's the exact opposite, especially if it develops antibodies towards a certain virus. I can't speak for anyone else's collection, but in my experiences as a vet tech, and in my own collection, this has not been the case. I have seen one or two cases where there's an underlying immunity problem where the animal is predisposed to a certain condition, such as RI and is more succeptible if the temp drops briefly. But I have treated numerous animals for infections, viruses, and parasites that have never recurred and some that may recur one or two times. It just depends on the animal, the environment, husbandry, genetics, age, etc.
I also wanted to add that each breeder has his/her own personal live guaranantee policies. Mine is 7 days and its stated on my website. So in this case, it wouldn't be covered. However, I would still try to meet them halfway because the situation is a gray area- the snake being so young, being bred before shipping (stress) and the other half- being shipped, flown, bred, and in an unfamiliar environment with no adjustment period (of even a week) (more stress). I'd have to take a percentage of that responsibility. I think this is just one of those situations where you have to look at the policies and the situation carefully and make a decision based on what you think is right. When you have money wrapped up in a live animal, that's the risk involved (on both sides).
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05-06-2012, 02:53 PM
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#114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomas raspoptsis
so there was no constriction of the snake at all it had stayed away from the females at opposite ends of the cb 70 tub
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You cant say for sure because you probably were not monitoring it 24/7...
However i still say the ulcers were most likely a pre-existing condition that flared up during all the stress of shipping and then breeding right away. As people said, the ulcers in that link that was posted were superficial examples. Even if the ribs of the snake pushed on the stomach to cause it i dont think that could all happen so quickly and made it so bad that it would kill the snake in just 10 days. I dont know for sure though, this is just my opinion on what most likely happened. Unfortunately we most likely will never really know for sure...
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05-06-2012, 03:20 PM
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#115
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Personally, regardless of if the condition were pre-existing or not I wouldn't refund you sheerly due to your husbandry practices. The point of quarantining an animal is 1) to be able to say you have observed it for a period of time and can therefore guarantee the health of the animal and your collection and 2) to give the animal time to calm down and adjust to not only a new environment but a completely new set of husbandry practices. You did neither. Since you didn't do either you can absolutely not say the death has NOTHING to do with the new environment the snake was thrust into because you didnt take time to observe the health of the snake on its own.
Additionally your argument tht you bought a rtb male for breeding season as justification for not quarantining is absolutely absurd. If the snake were sick from the previous owner you would now be breeding that illness into your collection. Every responsible breeder I know with respectable, HEALTHY collections will not cut corners at the sake of their animals' health which is exactly what you did. Because you did not have the patience to properly care for your animal you cannot prove it was ill prior to enterig your collection (animals can get stress ulcers just like us) and now youre upset that you're paying for YOUR mistake? Why should he trade back your snakes if you cant prove prior illness and have questionable husbandry practices?
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05-06-2012, 04:05 PM
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#116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neon
Personally, regardless of if the condition were pre-existing or not I wouldn't refund you sheerly due to your husbandry practices. The point of quarantining an animal is 1) to be able to say you have observed it for a period of time and can therefore guarantee the health of the animal and your collection and 2) to give the animal time to calm down and adjust to not only a new environment but a completely new set of husbandry practices. You did neither. Since you didn't do either you can absolutely not say the death has NOTHING to do with the new environment the snake was thrust into because you didnt take time to observe the health of the snake on its own.
Additionally your argument tht you bought a rtb male for breeding season as justification for not quarantining is absolutely absurd. If the snake were sick from the previous owner you would now be breeding that illness into your collection. Every responsible breeder I know with respectable, HEALTHY collections will not cut corners at the sake of their animals' health which is exactly what you did. Because you did not have the patience to properly care for your animal you cannot prove it was ill prior to enterig your collection (animals can get stress ulcers just like us) and now youre upset that you're paying for YOUR mistake? Why should he trade back your snakes if you cant prove prior illness and have questionable husbandry practices?
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Do you know what causes stress ulcers ?
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05-06-2012, 04:08 PM
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#117
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*Say stress*
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05-06-2012, 04:50 PM
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#118
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this thread has become way to big
the fact and only facts are Brandon/Tom sent Xavier 2 snakes babies at that and they are perfectly fine. Xavier sent 1 breeder male, that DIED within 9 days .Some thing isn't right , talk of QT no QT about stress from shipping. The fact is a healthy snakes does not die in 9 days. The unsaid gentlements agreement is that BOTH PARTIES are shipping HEALTHY snakes. And either party should stand behind there animal if something like this happens, Xaviers needs to do the right thing though he will lose thes most and Ship Brandon/Toms snakes back. As deals like this will effect future trades betweenhobbiest, and I'm sure peole will question Xaviers collection. The only way to turn it into a positive experience would be Xavier to send the 2 snakes back.
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05-06-2012, 05:18 PM
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#119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReptileGeek181
*Say stress*
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I have assisted in treating many people for stress ulcers never seen any that came from just being stressed there was always some traumatic injury or illness.
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05-06-2012, 05:29 PM
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#120
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Stress ulcers are single or multiple mucosal defects which can become complicated by upper gastrointestinal bleeding during the physiologic stress of serious illness.
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