DWARF Leopard Geckos???

I sent Pacific Coast Herpitological this email:

----- Original Message -----
From: <info@goldengategeckos.com>
To: <pch101@cox.net>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 11:52 AM
Subject: Message about: Young Adult trio of DWARF Leopard Geckos!


As a responsible and ethical leopard gecko breeder for nearly 10 years, it is my belief that the dwarfism of the two females you are selling is a genetic defect and therefore they should NOT be allowed to breed. I would hate to see this type of thing propagated into the general leo population! The male does not appear to have this defect, he's just small. These leos would make lovely pets... not breeders.

Thanks for reading this.
Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos



This was their reply:

Subj: Re: Message about: Young Adult trio of DWARF Leopard Geckos!
Date: 2/2/2005 1:28:35 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: pch101@cox.net
To: info@goldengategeckos.com
Sent from the Internet (Details)


Question: What do you think albinsm and many of the other color morphs is?
Answer: Genetic defects.
How is this different? Well, for starters, these do not have any genetic defect. They are just a very small line of Leos. They are no different than the tremper giants. Do you have a problem with them? These are healthy Leos, and they are going WILL be great breeders. This is captivity, in the reptile HOBBY. It is not a captive breeding program to introduce them into the wild. No one here is saving the species. If you have a problem with these, than you better take the rest of the day off and send your concerns to just about every other Leo ad in the Leo classifieds. Do you not see the hypocracy in your thinking?

James


Perhaps I should send him a link to this thread?

I think you should honestly. He'd be eatting his words as well

I knew that would be their defense. Marcia yes send him a link. But again it wont deter him - the people on fauna are not his target audience. He's looking for someone a bit more naive who will think they are on to the next big new leo morph...

I sent him an email with the link to this thread. I also made reference to the difference between a genetic mutation and a genetic defect.

Just to play Devils Advocate... I'm not positive, but isn't the Tremper Giant a mutation?

Yes, but it is not a defect. Dwarfism IS.

I don't know about genetics in Leos. But Giantism is a genetic defect like dwarfism in humans.
Sorry side question, is the fat female in the one pic too fat to safely breed or is that normal for a breeding leo?

I think after I post this response, I will use his advise and take the rest of the day off!



Subj: Re: Message about: Young Adult trio of DWARF Leopard Geckos!
Date: 2/2/2005 2:12:48 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: pch101@cox.net
To: Goldengategeckos@aol.com
Sent from the Internet (Details)

"Mutation/defect, potato/pototo, tomato/tomoto. It is arguably the same yhing. Mutation is just a nice word that is used in the hobby to help rationalize the herp hobby's obsession with all of the current color morphs. Color morph is another one of those nice words. I have to tell you that I think you are quite presumptuous to come to your conclusions by just looking at a picture. How very scientific of you. Thanks for your invite, but I will pass. I have other things to do".

I don't know... the Giant I bought from Tremper sure was a defect.....

Actually I do have to agree, Giant still could potentially be a defect.....

In fact the seller is right, most leopard gecko morphs would be negative in the wild.
However none of the morphs are negative in captivity. None of the morphs are health risks. Dwarfism is a health risk. I do not want to think of what would happen to a gravid dwarf... but who knows, it might be fine.

Nonetheless, I see nothing desirable in a Dwarf trait that would make it worth the inherent risks....

I for some odd reason am feeling the urge to add my opinion... maybe it's because I like to ramble?
Ok, a couple of other breeders and myself have noticed that leo's lengths seem to have gotten shorter and shorter through the past couple of years. At the same time the overall girth has gotten bigger mostly due to the desired look of having a fat gecko which many are mistaking for meaning it is a healthy gecko. Now, something I have noticed and the pictures below are an excellent example. The leo on top has a short squatty head, this is something I have seen mostly in higher colored morphs such as SHTCT's. Compare SHTCT's and other morphs that have an extensive amount of inbreeding in their family tree to a normal leo.
How does this all tie in to the "dwarf" leos? I don't know exactly but I feel we may see some additional changes starting to occur in the next few years...

frankly, I have concerns re the Giant leo morph too. giantism in other species goes along with that inability to stop growing (technical term to be supplied by someone with better memory) that is very definitely a health risk. tiger/lion crosses I believe have that problem. and human Giants have short live expectancy. that has to be a negative thing no matter who's asking.

Any single gene genotype not wild-type is both a mutation AND defect if it would negatively affect the animals chances to survive in the wild...this makes essentially all leo morphs being bred defects. Patternless, blizzard, albino...all genetic defects. Desireable traits are defined by humans...none of the above animals would be able to survive normally in the normal natural surroundings of leos. In captivity they are able to survive just fine and thrive...which is the key. I think if the "dwarf" leos are able to survive and thrive there is no reason for it to be considered immoral if you don't consider the breeding of the other morphs immoral. I would say however that breeding them if they have trouble breeding is not good...but chances are if small leos are bred together they will have smaller eggs with smaller babies (I would NOT however breed a large male to one of the "dwarf" females). Genetic mutations/defects are how all of our domestic animals have come about...how do you think basset hounds, chihuahuas, bulldogs, chinese cresteds, rex cats...etc, etc, etc...came about? Anyway...I don't want to be flamed...I'm not really taking a stance on the "dwarf" leos...whatever their genetics are...I'm just putting some things out there to think about.