(Super) Hypo Tangerine = co-dominant?

Hold the phone here Chad.

i realize robin is your friend and i realize you guys think i come off like some sorta jerk but maybe you should read this whole thread over from the begining.

Yeah Robin is a friend of mine. I don't particularly think you come off as a jerk at all, do not care if you are or are not. I am trying to give you the correct information on this topic based on my own personal experineces breeding these animals.

i never claimed to know more than you i just claimed to know about ray hines hypos and moreso THE PROPERTIES OF CODOMINANCE.

Never said you did or did not, I again was correcting some of the incorrect things you stated as fact.

you and robin turned this into a verbal spat. youve both been very nasty towards me on this thread and its apparent. YES ive only worked with geckos for a couple years. NO ive never bred a WT gecko to a SHCT. but what does that have to do with genetic knowledge?

Oh, I see, so I should just let you post these things that I disagree with and sit back and say nothing. Because, according to you Chad, if I say anything or disagree then I am turning this thread into a verbal spat. That is B.S. I was having a discussion and attempting to educate you regarding how the Hine line super hypos work genetically. You can take it or leave it, I really don't give a rat's behind, but I am not going to sit back and say nothing when some of what you are saying is false. You can try to turn it back around on me and say I have been nasty toward you if you want to but that is not the case. Seems kinda like in your case you can dish it out but cannot take it. You were very adamant about your points and I was very adamant about mine, if you think I was being nasty (which I was not), than so were you my friend.

that doesnt make me arrogant. not allowing yourself to be corrected is though.

You need to apply that statement to yourself there Chad. If I am wrong I will be the first to admit it, how about you?

my genetics information comes mainly from cable tv, text books, science magazines, terry dunham, my own experience working with them and here. not to mention the phone conversations ive had with vinny (diabloboa) and jeremiah (Diablo Snakefarm). you think geckos arent a major part of my life? try telling that to my girlfriend.

Chad, cmon now, I never said geckos were not a part of your life. I realize they are or you would not be here :-) What I was trying to say is that I have been breeding these Hine line hypos/super hypos/hypo carrot tails/whatever the heck you wanna call them for several years. I know what they do, and do not do, genetically. You posted some incorrect information as facts, and I stepped in to correct you, that's it! Jon Ho has been working with them as long as me and he pretty much confirmed what I already posted about them. Talking on the phone, reading books, watching tv, etc. does not even come close to comparing to practical experience, which was all I was trying to share with you and anyone else that might have been interested. Sorry you took it the wrong way, good night.

You know, this stuff we are discussing.. it isn't even important. You want to have an important discussion.. check out the links in this post I made a few minutes ago on the Current Events Forum. It's way more important than anything we discuss on the Leo Forum ;-)

Reality Bites

im still really confused what fact i got wrong. can you lay it out for me.

and for the record i still think using the fact that youve been breeding leopard geckos longer than me is an attempt to belittle me. a personal attack kelli. you werent attacking what i knew you were attacking my credability.

from the very begining i was saying EXACTLY what Jon said. though ive never heard of a "super super" hypo nor can i explain your SHTCT X bell albino breeding without speculating. ive said from the very begining that the ray hines super hypo is codominant and ive even layed it out in percentages. are they wrong?

im still really confused what fact i got wrong. can you lay it out for me.

I already have! Go back and read the thread again, I am not going to remake each point I have already made.

and for the record i still think using the fact that youve been breeding leopard geckos longer than me is an attempt to belittle me. a personal attack kelli. you werent attacking what i knew you were attacking my credability.

Chad, I have been breeding leopard geckos longer than you, it's a fact, am I supposed to apologize for that? All I did was ask you how long you had been working with the Hine super hypos, and how many super hypos you had hatched out (Again, you did not answer my question)? I think that is a legitimate question to ask considering you were defining the genetics on the animals? Don't you think? I didn't ask you how long you had been breeding leos, did I? (I have no idea how long that time period is, and it does not pertain to this discussion anyway, not really.) No I did not, I asked you how long you had been working with the Hine line. If that is belittling to you or makes you feel bad then I am sorry..

Oh man I hate the time difference....so manny new posts...

So I see...some of you are arguing about something I do not understand (yes...my English is too bad....I have grade 4 in america it would be grade D I think)

But let me tell you: I'm very impressed of what you all know. Thx to every one who gave his opinion.

Something I'd like to add about calling the babys from a Super Hypo to Normal pairing Super Hypos or Hypos:

So....the Babys I showed you on this photo:


look Super Hypo u all said (even if I would consider the ones with spotting on their backs as Hypos)...so from what we see, they are Super Hypos.


But if we expect the Super Hypo Gene to be co-dominant, we have to call them Hypos.

Take the Giants for example (co-dominant as well...as I know)
pairing "Super Giant" to "non Giant" you'll get 100% Giants. But if you have a very large and big Baby of this pairing, you mustn't call that a Super Giant, even it looks lie that...because it is genticly just a Giant!

So...even if the Babys from Super Hypo to Normal look like Super Hypos...they are Hypos.

but we just do not know at this time, if the gene is co-dominant...or dominant...or whatever....so we just do not know how to call the babys...we just ould call them after what we see at this time...so at this time the Babys from Super Hypo x normal that look like Super Hypos...have to been called Super Hypos...I think...that's just my opinion...

Originally Posted by diablohogs

hey Rhac...any chance you can post your non-holdbacks? i bet those look less like super hypos.

only the two '03-ones where holdbacks...because they where my first Super Hypos and the only Super Hypo Babys in '03. I sold all the '04 Babys. But I sold some of them to some of my friends...so there is a chance, that I get some current pics of them...to see how they turned out.

nice pics and nice leos, your english is fine rhac.
if u have any other questions or need further explanations i can help you. ich spreche deutsch, wo wohnst du auf in deutschland? =)

-jon

There is still one question running through my mind:

Are there Super Hypo Tangerines which are only line breed? Robbie Hampers book is saying that Bill and Marcia Brant introduces Tangerine Leopardgeckos in 1995. So my question is, where these Tangerines line-bred-tangerines?
So did they have normal Leopardgeckos and hatched out some babys with some tangerine in them and then started selective breeding?

Or did they have Ray Hine Line Tangerines and did selective breeding with them, so they get Tangerines with more intensive orange?

Originally Posted by SFgeckos

however i think there still needs to be alot of test breeding before coming to any 100% conclusions. the reason being is that MOST breeders crossed their hine hypo immediately into lines of tangerines and super hypo tangerines and then kept the best "tangerine x hine" offspring. the original "hine hypos" from '01 (and prior) are in fact quite "ugly" in my opinion, being white/off yellow with a faded body coloration. they are nothing spectacular (my opinion) compared to the "hine hypos" that u seen today since most had orange/tangerine or even high yellow influences bred into them. im not 100% sure that those are the "ghost" leos being sold now, but they sure resemble them to me? anyways just my experiences

Excellent post, Jon. This is a very good explanation as to 'why' we may not have all the answers people are seeking at this time.

Originally Posted by DiabloBoa

just sayin that chad is pretty knowledgeable about genetics and that being new to the community doesnt mean he doesnt know anything

Vinny, NO ONE is disputing Chad's understanding of genetics at all... just his understanding of Leopard Gecko genetics. Leo genetics can be extremely frustrating, and perhaps even more so for those that do have 'advanced' levels of genetics comprehension. But, I think what the thrust of this heated discussion is all about boils down to is the fact that those that have actually worked with these morphs are finding that the textbook rules may or may not apply here.

Originally Posted by diablohogs

my genetics information comes mainly from cable tv, text books, science magazines, terry dunham, my own experience working with them and here. not to mention the phone conversations ive had with vinny (diabloboa) and jeremiah (Diablo Snakefarm).

Chad, once again you are relying on your knowledge of snake genetics! Aarrrghhh!!! IMO, the more you try to compare Leopard Gecko genetics to that of snakes, the more frustrated you can become! Perhaps you should be talking directly to the folks that actually work with Leopard Geckos instead of your other resources? You might have a much better chance of finding the answers you are looking for if you actually spoke to Ray Hine, Kelli Hammack, Alby Scholl, Jon Ho, Charles Bona, and many others that have been working with these morphs for a number of years before you base your comments on the opinions of those that have not. I know that I have learned more from these people's experiences than even my own, and I have found that most LG folks would be more than happy to have the opportunity to share what they have learned in a non-combative conversation.

I feel that the tangerine color came from locality spacific animals that were wild caught...... Obviously, the tang coloration was made more intensive by selective breeding...... You mix that tang coloration into the hine line hypos and that where you get your hypo and super hypo tangs....

Now, is the baldy genetics actually a gene or is that a selectively bred trait????
I think it is genetic....