the AMAZING (so called) 16X het

Originally Posted by Blazin

Axe body spray WILL NOT make you into a studd muffin!

How do you explain all the chicks knocking down my door???? Oh wait, it must be my ravishing good looks.....LOL

OK Chad and Kelli, you convinced me. Enough of those really good looking geckos that RT produces. I want a gecko that is hand held, who's name is Cody.

hehe

How do you explain all the chicks knocking down my door????

they want your holdbacks!!!

Originally Posted by Herpcam

This is not the entire post, just the parts I'd like to discuss.

Got a few questions --

1. What is a morph?

2. What is a trait?

3. What is the difference between the two?

4. Is Carrot Tail a morph, or a trait?

5. Is Carrot Head a morph or a trait?

6. Is Patternless a morph or a trait?

High Yellow? Tangerine? Hypo? Super Hypo? Stripe? Jungle? Line Bred Snow? Mack Snow? Pastel? Rainbow? Tremper Albino? Rainwater Albino? Bell Albino? Leshock Albino (if it was a separate gene)? Circle Back? Jungle? Ghost? Blizzard? Red Stripe? Giant?

I think that's more than 16....but wait, you'll say "But those aren't single locus recessive mutations.....(I am a genetics dummy, so don't criticize for my incorrect usage, please).....


NOONE EVER SAID IT WAS A 16 Times HET for ANYTHING!!!!!

And as for monitoring other people's spending, I often wonder how many other cars or houses people could have bought every time I see a Ferrari or a Lamborghini pass me on the street here. It's none of my business, so I don't talk trash about the car companies. After all, they just say they're better cars.

I agree with this post. Well stated.

1. What is a morph? a mutation.

2. What is a trait? a charecteristic.

3. What is the difference between the two? a mutation is when a gene mutates from the normal funtion it was designed for while a trait is merely a specific charecteristic.

4. Is Carrot Tail a morph, or a trait? trait.

5. Is Carrot Head a morph or a trait? trait.

6. Is Patternless a morph or a trait? morph.

High Yellow? hyperxanthic is rumored to be linked to a single cell mutation. im not sure though.

Tangerine? a linebred trait where the resulting animal is hypexanthic and hypererythristic in appearance.

Hypo? ray hines hypos: morph (dominant/codominant/incomplete dominant), linebred hypos: linebred trait

Super Hypo? (see hypo)

Stripe? ive heard that people have recessive stripes and reverse stripes and i believe they were aquired from ron trempers stock. the lines i work with are polygenic selectively bred traits. i believe, from the result of breeding abberant offspring.

Jungle? abberent patterned. polygenic trait.

Line Bred Snow? selectively bred to appear anerythristic and axanthic.

Mack Snow? incomplete dominant morph. single locus mutation.

Pastel? im guessing possibly dominant. not sure on this one but im working on understanding it better.

Rainbow? pastel and stripe i believe.

Tremper Albino? single locus mutation. recessive morph.

Rainwater Albino? single locus mutation. recessive morph.

Bell Albino? single locus mutation. recessive morph.

Leshock Albino (if it was a separate gene)? i thought this was proven to be trempers line. single locus mutation. recessive morph.

Circle Back? abberent patterned. polygenic.

Jungle? you already said jungle.

Ghost? dominant or codominant/incomplete dominant.

Blizzard? single locus mutation. recessive morph.

Red Stripe? good question. im gonna say linebred.

Giant? first it was recessive, then it was codominant. cant say for sure but it definately isnt recessive.

Ok Monte,

That doesn't sound very gracious, to a man who let you look over his entire business.

What's not gracious about that? The truth isn't gracious enough for you? You stated it made you want to puke when you see a statement on someone's website about them being a smaller breeder and therefore can give theri animals individual attention, better care etc. So I simply stated the opposite end of the spectrum, which I would gather by your statement would make you feed good, rather than feeling sick.

And what's wrong with private school or trips? What are we anti-capitalist now?

Nothing wrong with those things at all, again, I was stating the opposite end of the spectrum. I didn't say if it was good or bad.

I still say that "I'm a small breeder, which gives personal attention to each of my geckos, and gives them cute names like Zoe, Panda and Dolly . . . " makes my eyes glaze over.

Well I am real sorry you feel that way. I happen to give names to most of my breeder leos, and holy crap, I give them personal attention too. I know, it sickens you doesn't it. But the big mega breeders that crank out leos and ship them out in wholesale lots the day they hatch make you feel good? How do you rationalize that? I am sorry, I do not understand.

OK Chad and Kelli, you convinced me. Enough of those really good looking geckos that RT produces. I want a gecko that is hand held, who's name is Cody.

Yeah, like you never name your geckos Monte haha. I know you better than that!

After all, they just say they're better cars.

better than what? what are you comparing a lamboghini and a ferrarri to?

Originally Posted by diablohogs

1. What is a morph? a mutation.

2. What is a trait? a charecteristic.

3. What is the difference between the two? a mutation is when a gene mutates from the normal funtion it was designed for while a trait is merely a specific charecteristic.

4. Is Carrot Tail a morph, or a trait? trait.

5. Is Carrot Head a morph or a trait? trait.

6. Is Patternless a morph or a trait? morph.

High Yellow? hyperxanthic is rumored to be linked to a single cell mutation. im not sure though.

Tangerine? a linebred trait where the resulting animal is hypexanthic and hypererythristic in appearance.

Hypo? ray hines hypos: morph (dominant/codominant/incomplete dominant), linebred hypos: linebred trait

Super Hypo? (see hypo)

Stripe? ive heard that people have recessive stripes and reverse stripes and i believe they were aquired from ron trempers stock. the lines i work with are polygenic selectively bred traits. i believe, from the result of breeding abberant offspring.

Jungle? abberent patterned. polygenic trait.

Line Bred Snow? selectively bred to appear anerythristic and axanthic.

Mack Snow? incomplete dominant morph. single locus mutation.

Pastel? im guessing possibly dominant. not sure on this one but im working on understanding it better.

Rainbow? pastel and stripe i believe.

Tremper Albino? single locus mutation. recessive morph.

Rainwater Albino? single locus mutation. recessive morph.

Bell Albino? single locus mutation. recessive morph.

Leshock Albino (if it was a separate gene)? i thought this was proven to be trempers line. single locus mutation. recessive morph.

Circle Back? abberent patterned. polygenic.

Jungle? you already said jungle.

Ghost? dominant or codominant/incomplete dominant.

Blizzard? single locus mutation. recessive morph.

Red Stripe? good question. im gonna say linebred.

Giant? first it was recessive, then it was codominant. cant say for sure but it definately isnt recessive.

That's good, Chad. I appreciate the time you put into this. I know I probably wouldn't have gone through the trouble.

Originally Posted by dictionary.com

Morph - morph2 Audio pronunciation of "morph" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (môrf)
n.
One of various distinct forms of an organism or species.
[From Greek morph, form, shape.]

Dictionary.com Definition of Morph

Is your definition, morph=mutation, the same as everyone's definition? Is that RT's definition of morph, vs. trait?

How about Gekkonida.com's leopard gecko MORPH page

And Steve Syke's Leopard Gecko Genetics page. Apparently he disagrees with your definition for some of the 'morphs' as well.

See, what you call a trait, is possibly what RT (and others apparently), call a morph, and vice versa.

Originally Posted by diablohogs

who cares weather or not it is fairly priced. it was 500 dollars! think of what other animal that person could have bought. furthermore would that animal have sold if it wasnt a 16X het? how well is the high yellow jungle giant market doing anyway?

This what I was referring to in the car reference. That someone would spend 100K+ for a car when they could buy a house in some places in our country or a couple other cars. The manufacturer's believe the lamborghini's and ferrari's are better cars (as some people do). Ie. Ferrari vs. Ford and 16-morph-gene-carrying-gecko vs. whatever Chad deems better. Who puts the value on the gecko, and who are you to challenge that? I will admit, I used to really care what people sold their geckos for, but I got over it. I hate to see someone get ripped off, but it happens, life goes on. I know that this 16 gene-carrying gecko wasn't as much of a rip off as I've seen before. (please don't get me wrong, if I were worth millions, I'd probably check out a ferrari, also, but to some people, that's insane).

Originally Posted by diablohogs

i would suggest that you dont buy any morphs that arent proven out. some people out there want to call every little detail of thier animal a morph without any proof that it is a inheritable trait.

So, to be a morph, it has to be inheritable? Why then isn't a Carrottail a morph? Or a jungle? Jungle's are related to Stripes, and I'll go out on a limb and say that they're quite genetic...perhaps not simple recessive, but it's in their genes. RT does believe his jungles are recessive mutations. Have you had these traits/morphs/mutations tested to confirm they're controlled by a single locus? (once again, I'm a genetic idjit, don't beat me up for my choice of words). You admit yourself that you're not positive on some of them.

The fact remains, he never sait it was a 16x het for anything, just a multi-het that carries genes for 16 morphs, which we've established above means different things to different people.

Chad, and everyone else - I don't think he's a god, and I don't agree with everything he does (especially not his incubation methods), but let's stop singling people out and trying to nuke them for such a simple little thing. He's not selling a leopard gecko skeleton that's 20g 'Ready to Breed', and he's not selling a Super Hypo Tangerine Carrot Tail Baldy that looks like a 5 gram normal...let this one go. I still can't wait to hear his explanation of the 16 morphs.

IMO Chad is pretty darn close to spot on here. We don't know all of the genetics behind the morphs but we are all trying to figure them out. This to me is another reason it is kinda of silly to talk about these traits in such a mattar of fact manner as to the whole make 16 morphs from one gecko.

OK, so where do the new variants "mutations" come from - They come from not new combinations of alleles, but new alleles themselves. Here is an easy way to understand it. Take a tangerine. It has multiple alleles that interact to give it its tangerine color. When you breed the animal together with another animal with the same strong color traits you get stronger color traits in the offspring. That isn't a mutation, rather just strong traits. That is why it is considered line bred.

We are now entering a whole different ball game in genetics. But what the heck lets go there! Probably the most common kind of mutations are those in which a single nucleotide base gets copied incorrectly or a big fat mistake in the DNA, this is called a point mutation. An example of how a point mutation works, without boring everyone, can result from changing one base out of the three in a codon resulting in a codon that calls for a different amino acid type at that point in the sequence. This is bad for the most part and is a catalyst to some nasty genetic diseases. This has a drastic effect and can cause the DNA to mutate. Now we have changed the DNA or created a mutation.

There are many possibilities when it comes to how and what make up a trait. Discrete variants for example are either or type characteristics, on or off; they have only two possibilities. To give an example[MADE UP] "If" head spots and baldy were discrete variants an offspring would either have head spots or be baldy.

Continuous variation- describes traits that have a range of variation, rather than distinct types, like tail length, skull size and skull shape. There are a lot more than these here, but we will pass on exploring this further for now.

- Dichotomous traits are controlled by just one pair of alleles.
- Continuously varying traits are controlled by many pairs of alleles.
- Traits that are controlled by multiple pairs of alleles (multiple loci) are called polygenic traits ie. traits not mutations. This is important to know.

And now for some really fun stuff pleiotropic alleles! They are really never talked about much in genetics in general let alone reptile genetic discussions, but they are important as well. It is when alleles effect more than one trait.

So coming back full circle the distinction between traits and mutations can be made fairly easily assuming we have a good study group to work with. I hope this helped a little.?

Rob, this is directly off of his site.....

#623 MULTI-HET JUNGLE PHASE SUPER GIANT - Male - 116 grams - $500.US
12 months old
Carries the genes for 16 different leopard gecko morphs!
Still growing!

That is a misleading play of words at best..... Some of us know that it is not het for 16 morphs, but I am sure the buyer thinks they will produce 16 different morphs with this animal.....

Honestly, do you see a SHTCTB comming from this leo??? Or a Mack super snow, or how about a temper, bell, or las vagas hybino??? Aint happenin..... Oh wait, I know, there is a chance that a blazing blizzard will pop out when this is paired tonother leo, right???

The difference between your car theory and this leopard gecko is that when someone buys a Ferrari they know exactly what they are getting inside and out and if it is not what was advertised, it can be proven...... The person buying a car like that would have to know something about cars or atleast that particular model and will have quite a bit of money to spend.....

When it comes to this Leopard Gecko, It unfortunatly can not be proven either way and RT knows this..... Most likely the person buying it does not know much otherwise the person would have laughed at the claim and the price..... Also $500 is a good amount of money but it is nothing a 15 year old could not save up in a month.....

I would love to see the responses someone like me or Chad would get if we made the same claims as RT.....LOL...... My guess is that most of the people defending RT would be the same people ripping us a new A-hole...... Not to mention if we knowingly cause deaths and deformities so we can produce brighter looking babies by increasing incubation temps at critical stages of the embryos development.....