North American Cobra?

I had heard (not read) that there is scientific proof of a large Cobra-like elapid that historically roamed the Southeastern parts of North America. Is this true?

If so, it could be a good explanation for the habit of hognosed snakes and false water cobras to "hood" as a defensive threat display.

Has anyone heard such a story? Had the species actually existed in South and Central Americas if it's true?

Are there any sources for this?

Thanks
Todd Evans

I have personally never heard of large elapids roaming the western hemisphere, but I don't think it is out of reason. After all, there are several species of elapid Coral Snakes in North and South America. So I don't think it would be THAT much of a stretch for larger elapid species to have lived in this part of the world at some time, though I personally haven't heard nor seen any evidence of this.

I have never heard of any indigenous large elapids in the Americas, so I can't help you on that. However, back in the 1950s in Springfield, MO, there was an exotic pet shop that had a shipment of cobras brought to their store (what were they thinking???). Someone made a mistake, and the animals escaped. I don't think it took more than a day or two for all of them to be accounted for (captured or killed), but it certainly made everyone here in the Ozarks take notice for a while!

As for the hognose snakes and false water cobras hooding, do you suppose they are mimmicing an long dead large elapid of the Americas, or do you suppose they are simply hooding for the same reason the cobra does: to make itself look bigger? I'd be interested in your thoughts.

I personally think that hognose and fwc are mimicking a behavior. I mean, realistically, they wouldn't be a major threat to a large predator if they were to bite it, whereas a cobra is certainly a danger.

Judging frm the way that colubrids tend to "rattle" their tail mimicking a rattler, when threatened, leads me to this conclusion.

I wish I could remember the story or could find a website that may have it listed. But according to my friend, there was a fossilized skeleton found in southern Florida. It was supposedly front, fixed fanged, yet was significantly larger than any elapids native to the area. something like 6 feet.....that's a pretty BIG coral snake. They also said that there was evidence that the skeleton was able to flatten the bones on it's neck, leading to the theory that it was possibly a lost species of North American cobra.

I'm pretty sure that the fossil was dated prior to European colonization. So if this story were true, there is no evidence that this creature still roams the land......

anyway........if anybody can find ANYTHING supporting a story similar to this, please contribute

thanks
Todd Evans

Todd,

I am not trying to knock you on this, but if hognoses and false water cobras are "trying" to mimic a cobra by flattening their necks, then what are cobras trying to mimic? As Darrin said, those snakes flatten their necks for the same reason that a cobra does, to appear larger and more threatening.

As for rattling, colubrids are not trying to mimic rattlers. And colubrids are not the only snakes in North America that rattle their tails. Agkistrodons do it as well, and they have venom as potent as some of the rattlers. Also, many Asian species of Elaphe rattle their tails, and there are no species of rattlesnakes ever recorded to have lived anywhere outside of North and Central America. So what rattlesnakes are they mimicking?

Again, I think it is POSSIBLE that there could have been a large elapid living in the Western Hemisphere at some point, but without seeing anything more about the fossils in question, I'm feeling fairly skeptical at the moment. And oh yeah, I will have to look it up to be sure, but I think there is a species of South American Coral Snake that gets up to 5 feet long, so a large species similar to a coral is not out of the range of possibility.

Brazilian Giant Coral reaches 6 feet maybe more. Just a note. Thanks Ray HBR

It's documented by the fossil record. It is called Crotalus giganticus. The fossil records indicate that it grew to about 20 foot long and strongly resembled adamantus, just a lot bigger. It occupied the approximately the same range as adamantus

I think the current theory is that the native indians managed to wipe it out.

What a rush it would have been to find one.!

Just imagine the amount of venom a snake that size would be able to produce, not to mention the size of the fangs.

I will have to look it up to be sure, but I think there is a species of South American Coral Snake that gets up to 5 feet long, so a large species similar to a coral is not out of the range of possibility

Micrurus surinamensis, one of my favorite snakes despite having never so much as seen one in person... And a serious wish list kind of animal for anyone who happens to be a smuggler that wants to include me on their Christmas list.

Got a bunch of common names, as Ray mentioned... Pick two of the following and apply them together in front of the word "Coral": Amazon, Giant, Aquatic.

Oh yeah... and there are records of them breaking six feet, although not by too much, with decent regularity.

The best part though... The colors are "reversed" so that if someone tries to identify them using those fairly silly rhymes, they're going to be in for a bit of a surprise. There are a number of central and south american species that this is true of, but the surinamensis are the biggest and among the brightest and most distinctly marked...

Basic rule of thumb; when you're not sure what species you're dealing with, don't freehandle it... This is doubly true when on vacation in the tropics.