Reptile Addicts / Fred Kick

Originally Posted by JudyC

I appreciate you typing all that out. The key to the BOI is details...not brevity. At least you typed it well and divided it into manageable chunks.

I agree that Fred Kick is someone to avoid doing business with. I don't imagine I'll ever think differently, no matter how many times someone comes on here and says they got a good deal from him. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

That being said...I'd REALLY like to see those pics and vet report. Your story is about the craziest thing I've ever heard. For a ball python to have consumed a snake is rare enough. But for that snake to remain in its guts for weeks on end without either being digested or regurged...and at the same time the snake gets SKINNIER instead of bloating...

I will find the vet papers and post pictures,i had them posted on my facebook page and it got taken down.The main reason i was really upset was because fred kick,wanted me to return her to him in good condition. I refused that because he had sold me a sick snake in the beggining so i couldn't understand,why he would ask me to return her depending on her conditions.

When i seen the snake she regurgitated,in the back of my mind the first thing i said was this is rare,but it does happen sometimes.She got skinnier and refused to eat or drink water.I purchased her from one of his ads on kingsnake,now every time i look on kingsnake i pass and ignore his ads.

Originally Posted by ajakana

I'm just seeing your reply,to answer some of your questions to make sense here is what happened. I bought a pastel female ball python from free back in 2009,when i received the snake it was a super pastel,but i was angry because he mislabeled the snakes proper name,i did not demand my money back because it was a super pastel. I demanded my money back because as soon as i recieved it,she immediately started acting strange.

I kept her away from my other snakes,including the males,the first message i sent to him was that she was not eating. He responded back and told me she had eaten last week,so i asked him again about her eating habits he told me she only eats frozen thawed,and to try feeding her in a couple of days. I waited and tried giving her frozen thawed again,she did not take it,i even cut part of it open so she could smell the blood and maybe she would eat. Even tried force feeding her still nothing,this went on for a few more days but i still kept in contact with him. He then told me she eats live,he also changed the size of mice she was feeding on,this also made me upset because i had discussed this with him way before i purchased her from him.

So he asked if i had her with any other snakes,i said no then he tried to make it seem like i was the one stressing her out. Another week went by still not eating,i decided to just leave her alone for a few more weeks and try again,3 weeks went by and i tried giving her a PK fuzzy because i figured if she was not eating the forzen thawed it's not safe to put a live one in with her. She did not take that either,i contacted fred again and this time he acted as though i was getting on his nerves or something,i told him i would be taking her to my vet and he didn't respond. The day i took her to the vet she was really skinny and losing girth,the vet thought i was neglecting her but i told her who i purchased from,and what fred had told me about her health.

She examined my snake and gave me antibiotics and an appetite stimulant,told me to come back in 1 week for a check up. To see if she was doing better. When i got back home i followed the instructions my vet gave me,i emailed fred again and told him i came back from the vet and the medication she gave me for the snake,he said okay. The following day it was time for me to give her the antibiotics,she seemed fine and i left her alone. after 3 days i tried feedng her again because the vet told me to try. And if she did not take it to start giving her the appetite stimulant,i did this for a week and brung her back to the vet.

She was fine,brung her back home and i noticed she started getting this green crust around her nose. I cleaned it off because it was preventing her from breathing,and i thought the antibiotics was working. But then the green crust kept coming back,no matter how many times i cleaned it off so she could breath better it returned. Her breathing just got worse, a few days later it seemed she got skinny overnight. Because she did not look that way a few days prior,i knew she was going to die but didn't know when. I do not know the exact day she died but before she did,she regurgetated another snake and must have died when i was sleeping.When i woke up to check on her and found her dead i noticed she threw something up,i put some rubber gloves on so i could look at it and it was another snake. I took the dead body and what she threw up so i could get it confirmed,the vet examined it and took test. when i got the results back it was in fact another snake.

This is what was making her sick along with the green crust around her nose,causing her not wanting to eat or drink any of her water.I contacted fred and told him she had died,he tried to blame it on me. I sent him a picture of the snake she regurgetated and showed him the paperwork that proved this. He never responded,did not want to make a comprimise or anything. He disappeared,The snake he sold me only lived for 2 months.

I hope this cleared some of your questions up,i didn't mean to write a book so i apologize if it's too long.But i wouldn't reccomend anyone buy from fred kick,i am suspcious of him and the animals that he sells. I wanted a refund because he had sold me a sick snake,that ended up dying. All the running back and forth to the vet,trying to get her to eat i feel that i was entitled to one. When i did not hear from him ever since i just left it alone, i had to accept my loss and move on.

I spelt fred kicks name wrong,sorry for the error.

What kind of "snake" did it regurge?? Somethings VERY strange about this story.

Ok! Back to MY experience of Fred Kick...
The long-awaited update...I finally got the results back from the necropsy!
THE FINDINGS:
- hemorrhage into the coelom with white foci in the skeletal muscle and tissue firmness cranial to the heart
- kidneys were enlarged and pale
- the liver was diffusely congested.
- mild infiltration of lymphoid cells and some degenerate granulocytic leukocytes int he portal triads (these are associated with cell debris and fibrin)
- the lungs were congested
- the spleen was mildly autolyzed (disintegration of the cells)
- the pancreas was severely autolyzed. In areas where of the pancreas is less autolyzed, there was extensive inflammation and necrosis. There is cell debris, fibrin, edema, and viable and degenerate heterophilis as feel as clusters of lymphoid cells.
- intestines were mildly autolyzed
- the kidney is supporting multiple irate to phi, which are characterized by pale material surrounded by cell debris.
- extensive interstitial fibrosis and mucinous degeneration in the kidney
- gallbladdar was severely autolyzed
DIAGNOSIS:
1. Kidney: severe diffuse actue to subacute tubulointerstitial nephritis with urate tophi.
2. Pancreas: focally extensive acute necrotizing pancreatitis.
Additional comments:
The snake had severe renal disease. Both kidneys were severely affected. Possible additional cause: paramyxovirus; but needs more testing to be determined.

In conclusion...
The snake was in fact sold to me VERY sick. Yes, I am taking this to court ASAP to be resolved with the "breeder." Yes, he will be banned from most (if not all) Pennsylvania reptile expos and shows. Yes, I will keep you posted if I win the case. I can't post photos of the original vet records and the original necropsy write-up until after the court settling is over. Thanks for keeping up, guys! It's a sad story, but hopefully everyone learns something out of it.
-Alessia Bachrach

Wow, that poor poor snake! It's absolutely despicable that the seller (Reptile Addicts) could let an animal get to that degree of nephritis in their care, let alone then try to sell it off as a healthy specimen.

In order for an animal to get that degree of kidney damage, it had to be severely dehydrated. This indicates lack of fresh water (or any water) and overall poor husbandry. The intestinal decay, along with lung autolysis, suggests a rampant respiratory infection that the seller should definitely have been able to notice.

Fred, you are at fault in this case- as there's no way the snake could have become that ill in the short time it was in the OP's care. You should refund her money.

Alessia, any word as to time frame of paramyxovirus testing?

Originally Posted by MikeCurtin

Alessia, any word as to time frame of paramyxovirus testing?

Unfortunately, I won't be doing the additional testing for paramyxovirus. The initial testing for the necropsy was ridiculously expensive, and I can't feasibly afford any additional testing. What the necropsy has done so far is prove that the snake was, in fact, very sick- which is the gist of what I needed. I've done what I can financially so far to get the facts I need, so I'll go to court with what I've gotten. Thanks for the concern, though!
-Alessia Bachrach

I haven't gotten a chance to read the whole thread, but I had to respond immediately.
I have purchased 3 animals from reptile addicts at the June or august hamburg show. I would have to check my records put I'm pretty sure the 2 chuckwallas And 1 Uro came front the June show.
I purchased 2 female chuckwalla, Nd a female red Niger uromastyx.
All three died within about a 3 week span after purchase.
The Both female chucks were Gravid and from being forced into tiny living quarters w no dig boxes, by the time I got them they were already way past when they should have laid and egg bound.
I took the one who immediately showed distress to the vet right after purchase. She died during a procedure to remove the eggs. When the eggs were removed they were extremely rotten and the vet made numerous comments on he was shocked she lived that long egg bound. I was lucky bc he didn't charge me for her procedure.. He was excited to have a chance to work on an exotic lizard and broaden his knowledge. I agreed at this time to bring the 2nd female in. She died shortly after her procedure. This was about a week after I purchased them.
As for the Uro, I put her in her cage and left her to her privacy. I noticed the cage disturbed each day so I wasnt too concerned.
About 2 weeks after I purchased her, I decided to get her out and check her weight. I was horrified. She lost 30g and was skin and bones. I gave her oral fluids and made a vet appt for 2 days later - it was the first available.
She died before I could even get her to the vet.
Post mortem tests showed a huge area of necrosis on her stomach and showed signs of renal failure.
I don't want to get into a back and forth, but I felt so bad for the OP In this thread. If that snake had IBD, all the snakes at the expo were put at risk - most ppl don't wash hands btw handling animals and I'm sure many ppl handled reptile addicts snakes and then went and handled other ppls snakes.

I'm sorry to hear about the OP's loss and all they went through. Next time, I recommend buying a 100% solid animal from a reputable breeder (or a reputable dealer if you're buying something not bred in captivity). If you can see eye caps, then that's usually a sign you're dealing with someone who doesn't have a keen eye for health problems...meaning there are probably more problems you don't see.

I want to point out that I'd never buy anything from the Kick brothers as I've heard more than enough horror stories, but I would like to make a few points.

1. Most breeders do not have any sort of return/refund policy, contrary to what the OP stated in one of his/her posts. Almost every breeder I know of will issue credit, but does not offer cash refunds. The Kicks are not alone with this policy and this is not what makes them bad guys.

2. I'm not sure, but it looks to me like the seller is expecting to be reimbursed for vet expenses, which is not reasonable. Fred Kick offered the OP a full cash refund for the purchase price, which is as much responsibility as any seller has.

I'm not saying it's right to sell sick animals - I'm just saying that what you do with a reptile after you buy it is your decision, and the seller is no longer responsible. If you weren't happy with the animal, then return it and let the seller worry about the health issues. Chances are they would have either euthanized the animal or fixed whatever was wrong, without having to spend $500+ in vet bills.

3. I've seen more traditional dog/cat veterinarians do more harm to the animal, than I have actually seen fix animals. Most vets are trained for dogs, cats and the usual types of pets...they generally don't know much of anything about reptiles and in my personal experience, most veterinarians have no business treating reptiles. I've seen body parts (limbs, hemipenes) removed unnecessarily, and I've seen vets give antibiotics and appetite stimulants that ended up killing the animal in question. Bottom line, if you take a reptile to the vet, be sure it's a vet who specializes in reptiles. Otherwise, you'd be better off getting advice from someone knowledgeable who works with or breeds that species.

In my opinion, whether intentional or not, the vet screwed you out of a lot more money than the Kicks did. A good reptile breeder could have taken one look at that snake and known how to remedy the situation, or if it was too far gone to save.

And again, I'm not making any excuses for the Kicks. They have no business being in this industry. Guys like that just make my job harder by having to deal with the paranoid customers that they create.

I may be mistaken.. but I believe that the OP stated in her original post that the snake was indeed taken to a Reptile Vet. :] Not a cat and dog vet.