Vote***financing Fauna***vote

Tanith, I do hear what you are saying, but the BOI has reached a crossroads. I have heard people say time and time again that the BOI is a "joke", "worthless", "good only for entertainment", etc., etc. I have had people taunt me privately that they can register as many times as they please and post whenever they want on the BOI no matter what I do about it. I have had people bypass the fines and suspensions at will. We have caught MANY people posting as someone else to give them an "attaboy" post or else as multiple people to post bad guy posts to help look like there is a large amount of support for their claim.

This has to end, or the BOI has no real effectiveness. That is one of the solutions I am trying to come up with. NO ONE has come up with anything else that is suitable as an alternative.

I believe you mentioned a 1 month trial period. What good would that do for what I am trying to do with the BOI? Not a thing. It would completely negate the purpose of the fee as being a toll gate for the abuses I am trying to eliminate.

This is NOT all about just getting a revenue influx for this site. I am trying to combine this with what I see as something ABSOLUTELY needed if the BOI, and this site along with it, is going to be able to progress beyond the "soap opera" stage it is now in.

So tell me, anyone, if you were faced with the task of trying to increase the credibility of the BOI, which implies the MEMBERS that are posting on there, how would YOU do it? Oh to nip this in the bud before someone comes up with it: If anyone thinks I am going to require phone numbers from everyone, and call them up, long distance on my dime, you can just kick that idea right out of your head. Another idea that has already been rejected is to have me refuse registrations from free email accounts. But several people have provided me with what I consider as genuinely good reasons why this is not a good idea. Not the least of which is that there is a HUGE membership base that uses AOL accounts that I would have to boot out of here. So that just is NOT feasible.

So, as should be very obvious by now, I am open for suggestions. I really hope someone can come up with an idea that I have not thought of over the years, but I would be gratified to be pleasantly surprised if it happens.

Oh, there was one other alternative that I have considered, that I may as well lay on the table right now: Just not give a damn about it and let it go as it is. Which means not wasting my time, nor that of my moderators patrolling the BOI trying to catch these fake IDs and bogus registrations. Certainly if people are not willing to pay for the hope of increased credibility, then I may well consider this option more strongly. I mean, sheesh, is $10 really that much of a killer to most people? I thought that if I kept the price low enough, it wouldn't really hurt anyone. But maybe I just overestimated the majority of the people coming to this site. But I do tend to do that. One of my biggest character flaws, I do believe.

Originally Posted by WebSlave

Also, sorry, but I am just not of the mind to implement anything at all that would take more money out of my pocket in order to hire my programmer to do it.

I haven't read all the posts on the forum, but Web Slave, how much do you totally spend on your site? I'd realyl like to know. I know its in the hundreds of dollars at least but please tell me (jaoa49@yahoo.com). When I'm not in such a tight spot for money right now I think you'd want me to donate Otherwise I would, but thanks to fauna sparking my interest, I have to build a few hundred dollar's worth of cage's and this isn't the time to donate.

I used to own a site pay for it and everything but if there is one thing that is really hard to do is Graphics, Programming and coding. However, when I needed help I talked to my friend who is a programmer and he figured out how to do this and that and he was awsome on it.... If you need one I'd give you his contact info...

Otherwise Thank You for putting up such a site if it wasn't for Fauna I wouldn't have the beauties I have now

Originally Posted by snakegetters

Rich asked the membership to take some of their time and energy to help come up with a viable solution to keep Fauna alive. I really doubt that anyone here is complying with his request to "make a name for themselves". I think that most of us are here pitching in because we care about the board and want to help. I don't know why you're here, but evidently it's not for the same reason.

Tanith you are so right and when called upon we as a "Community" come together and try to come up with solutions to what needs to be addressed thats what this site a valuable asset to the Herp World and Im proud to be part of it

Originally Posted by JAOA49

I haven't read all the posts on the forum, but Web Slave, how much do you totally spend on your site? I'd realyl like to know. I know its in the hundreds of dollars at least but please tell me (jaoa49@yahoo.com).

Sorry, but I don't think it is appropriate to discuss things like this with anyone. Even when I was getting a paycheck, I learned early on that discussing your pay with coworkers is a really bad thing to do, for everyone involved.

But I will tell you this: All of the money I have gotten from people signing up for the Contributor Memberships, to date, has just barely covered what I had to pay my programmer in the last month or so for the work he has done. Right now, with the server moves taking place, I am now paying for four (4) servers until I can be satisfied that the new ones are stable and can release the older two. I use top of the line servers, so they are NOT cheap.

And heck, I don't know. What is MY time worth these days?

Originally Posted by WebSlave

Tanith, I do hear what you are saying, but the BOI has reached a crossroads. I have heard people say time and time again that the BOI is a "joke", "worthless", "good only for entertainment", etc., etc. I have had people taunt me privately that they can register as many times as they please and post whenever they want on the BOI no matter what I do about it. I have had people bypass the fines and suspensions at will. We have caught MANY people posting as someone else to give them an "attaboy" post or else as multiple people to post bad guy posts to help look like there is a large amount of support for their claim.

This has to end, or the BOI has no real effectiveness. That is one of the solutions I am trying to come up with. NO ONE has come up with anything else that is suitable as an alternative.

I believe you mentioned a 1 month trial period. What good would that do for what I am trying to do with the BOI? Not a thing. It would completely negate the purpose of the fee as being a toll gate for the abuses I am trying to eliminate.

This is NOT all about just getting a revenue influx for this site. I am trying to combine this with what I see as something ABSOLUTELY needed if the BOI, and this site along with it, is going to be able to progress beyond the "soap opera" stage it is now in.

So tell me, anyone, if you were faced with the task of trying to increase the credibility of the BOI, which implies the MEMBERS that are posting on there, how would YOU do it? Oh to nip this in the bud before someone comes up with it: If anyone thinks I am going to require phone numbers from everyone, and call them up, long distance on my dime, you can just kick that idea right out of your head. Another idea that has already been rejected is to have me refuse registrations from free email accounts. But several people have provided me with what I consider as genuinely good reasons why this is not a good idea. Not the least of which is that there is a HUGE membership base that uses AOL accounts that I would have to boot out of here. So that just is NOT feasible.

So, as should be very obvious by now, I am open for suggestions. I really hope someone can come up with an idea that I have not thought of over the years, but I would be gratified to be pleasantly surprised if it happens.

Oh, there was one other alternative that I have considered, that I may as well lay on the table right now: Just not give a damn about it and let it go as it is. Which means not wasting my time, nor that of my moderators patrolling the BOI trying to catch these fake IDs and bogus registrations. Certainly if people are not willing to pay for the hope of increased credibility, then I may well consider this option more strongly. I mean, sheesh, is $10 really that much of a killer to most people? I thought that if I kept the price low enough, it wouldn't really hurt anyone. But maybe I just overestimated the majority of the people coming to this site. But I do tend to do that. One of my biggest character flaws, I do believe.

Webslave,
The one thing I think when I see the idea of paying to post on the BOI.
Let's say someone comes and makes a bad guy post for Joe Schmoo.
Now Joe Schmoo has never heard of this site but his name is now being called
into question. Yet he has to pay a fee to defend himself at a site he has never heard of (or may not want to be a member of). So at this point he has to make a decision of whether he wants to pay whatever membership fee or just let said person/people bash his reputation.
I really feel this would take away from what the BOI is meant for (my opinion).

I have no solve all solution to fix what people think is wrong with this site (in some peoples opinion). But as I have seen when people do reregister they are more often than not called out on it very quickly.

Once again this is just my opinion.


-Rory Rygiewicz

Originally Posted by WebSlave

Tanith, I do hear what you are saying, but the BOI has reached a crossroads. I have heard people say time and time again that the BOI is a "joke", "worthless", "good only for entertainment", etc., etc. I have had people taunt me privately that they can register as many times as they please and post whenever they want on the BOI no matter what I do about it. I have had people bypass the fines and suspensions at will. We have caught MANY people posting as someone else to give them an "attaboy" post or else as multiple people to post bad guy posts to help look like there is a large amount of support for their claim.

*nods* Okay, so the solution you implement has to effectively end people's ability to come back painlessly after being banned for abuse. Would it work to do the following?

1. Grandfather most of the current accounts. Yes, I know that this would mean we would still have some of the current problem users, at least until they were caught and thrown off. So this would mean some additional mod time to catch people abusing the system. It would also mean you would not have the precipitous and disastrous drop in the user base that I forsee happening if you make everyone pay to register. To help weed out the user base a little more, you could grandfather in only the accounts that had X number of posts to help verify that these were individual people.

2. Make the BOI read-accessible to registered but non paying memberships, but not writable. I suspect that making it completely inaccessible to the public would effectively be website suicide.

I believe you mentioned a 1 month trial period. What good would that do for what I am trying to do with the BOI? Not a thing. It would completely negate the purpose of the fee as being a toll gate for the abuses I am trying to eliminate.

You're right, so how about another way to hook'em? What we want to accomplish is to introduce people to Fauna with a sampling of the goods so that they are willing to pay to play. A read-only access would help.

If I came across a closed website that purported to offer what Fauna offered, except I had to pay $10 before I could even see it, I wouldn't pay the $10. I'd websearch for the information I wanted instead, because I would never have had the opportunity to see what I'd be getting for my $10. Most people won't buy a pig in a poke, or a snake in a sack, as it were.

Another possibility is to allow registered but non paying members the ability to buy a smaller increment of posting credits - say, $1 or $2 for a single post. Such posts would be clearly marked as such, leaving it obviously visible if too many posts of that nature turned up in certain people's threads. I see potential problems with this solution, including extra programming time, so it may not be a viable one.

So tell me, anyone, if you were faced with the task of trying to increase the credibility of the BOI, which implies the MEMBERS that are posting on there, how would YOU do it?

I might research the model that adult sites use for age verification, and require a credit card to sign up whether or not a fee was charged.

I might also try the cryptographic "network of trust" model used with PGP keys, which puts the burden on your userbase to verify which members score high on the trust scale because enough trusted users have personally contacted them. All you have to do as the admin is to sign off on which users on your site are personally known to you face to face or on the phone. In turn those users sign for others who are personally known to them in the same manner, and so on and so forth. Signing someone's key means that you are verifying that you have met and/or spoken to them. Only people in your personal "web of trust" can verify keys for your purposes. This can certainly be abused, but it's actually a lot more difficult to abuse than it sounds if it's set up using the PGP model. It works remarkably well in public key cryptography.

Another idea that has already been rejected is to have me refuse registrations from free email accounts. But several people have provided me with what I consider as genuinely good reasons why this is not a good idea. Not the least of which is that there is a HUGE membership base that uses AOL accounts that I would have to boot out of here. So that just is NOT feasible.

Combine the two ideas perhaps. The "pay as you go" or free registrations might require a real email account, whereas the regular memberships could stick with a free address.

I mean, sheesh, is $10 really that much of a killer to most people? I thought that if I kept the price low enough, it wouldn't really hurt anyone. But maybe I just overestimated the majority of the people coming to this site. But I do tend to do that. One of my biggest character flaws, I do believe.

Yes, it is going to be a killer to casual users who are not personally interested or committed to the board. The average browser is going to see the fee and run straight to Google to look for a free alternative.

deicide,

That is exactly where I was torn in the beginning. Why should someone have to pay to defend themselves against possible false accusations. Then the more I thought about it and heard Rich's reasons, the more I think charging a fee will do way more good than harm.

Although, I still think the BOI should be open to free registered members as read-only. One should not have to pay to see if someone is posting about them or to find out who is honest and who is not. If the charges are false, then $10 is nothing to save your reputation. I mean come on, I can fill up my tank with gas and go inside and spend another $10 on BS at the gas station. A couple of sodas, a bag or two of cashews, a candy bar for the youngin', etc. $10 is nothing. We blow $10 on BS all the time. $10 is too much to face you accusers over your business and its future? I don't think so.

If the person truly is guilty then they may not pay the $10 and just take the beating without it turning into 57 pages of BS that was solved on page 2. I really think it will help clean up the BOI. But I can not stress enough that the BOI should be read-only access for non paying registered members though.

Some good explanations about the "web of trust" model here:

http://www.rubin.ch/pgp/weboftrust.en.html

http://www.hr.mnscu.edu/faq/pke.html

http://www.byte.com/art/9502/sec13/art4.htm

I might research the model that adult sites use for age verification, and require a credit card to sign up whether or not a fee was charged.

Tanith,

Wouldn't we be leaving out the minors? From what we have seen over the years in the BOI they are quite a large group, and also the future of our hobby/industry. What about those that for one reason or another don't have current access to a credit card?

Regards.

Originally Posted by shrap

deicide,

That is exactly where I was torn in the beginning. Why should someone have to pay to defend themselves against possible false accusations. Then the more I thought about it and heard Rich's reasons, the more I think charging a fee will do way more good than harm.

Although, I still think the BOI should be open to free registered members as read-only. One should not have to pay to see if someone is posting about them or to find out who is honest and who is not. If the charges are false, then $10 is nothing to save your reputation. I mean come on, I can fill up my tank with gas and go inside and spend another $10 on BS at the gas station. A couple of sodas, a bag or two of cashews, a candy bar for the youngin', etc. $10 is nothing. We blow $10 on BS all the time. $10 is too much to face you accusers over your business and its future? I don't think so.

If the person truly is guilty then they may not pay the $10 and just take the beating without it turning into 57 pages of BS that was solved on page 2. I really think it will help clean up the BOI. But I can not stress enough that the BOI should be read-only access for non paying registered members though.

I'm gonna condense this story the best I can.
About 8 years ago I was diagnosed with both cancer of the Larynx and cancer of the Pharynx.
At that time I knew I would have many treatments coming. I started thinking of the amount of snakes I had at that time. I had over 80 snakes and knew these treatments would make my ability to care for these snakes subpar. I couldn't live with that so I sold/adopted them out to good poeple who I knew.
Also lets say one of these people posted I was a bad guy because one of snakes was not what they expected.
Now keeping that in mind lets say a hobbyist gets to a point they have sell a snake or 2 to pay some bills or basically to survive(groceries, utilities, etc..).
So yes to them $10.00 maybe alot. But just because they can't afford the membership fee (could be using that to feed the animals). They are automatically guilty of being a scammer because they can't afford to pay the fee??

This can and will impact there ability to buy good quality animals in the future.
As we have all seen many people refuse to sell to people labled as a bad guy on this site.

So in essence you are holding someones reputation as "hostage" for the price of a membership fee. That just don't sit well with me.

While I agree I can spend $10 without even thinking of it there are others who are right at the edge. Where that $10 can be food for a few days, could feed a few snakes, etc..etc..

So I guess what I am saying is are we to disregard the hobbyist for the business people??


Once again just my observations and my opinion.