Witblits dragons - true patternless beardies

Jaques,

"He bought them in from us in May 2009"

Your time line is all screwed up. I imported your animals in october 2010.

"Jay that is 7 months later and no issues"

two months later

"I noticed a small spot in one of our juveniles. For the fear of it being something lethal I euthanized the dragon and sent the lesion to the pathologists. The report came back as NORMAL PIGMENTATION!"

If it were normal, why are you telling some people to be careful of the"black spot disease" with the witblits.

"So the 'sick' spotted male still reproduced. "

reproduced BEFORE i noticed the spots

"One with the skin 'problem' and one with respiratory problems. Neither of these two problems can be linked to the Witblits morph per se"

really think about this statement. Only your dragon developed the spots. Only your dragons had respiratory problems.

"infertility"

yes your dragons had serious fertility issues. Both of the male witblits had very short hemipenes, like stumps. The one that eventually bred after numerous tries still couldn't fertilize an entire clutch(probably from having such short hemipenes). The third under the dachiu's care was also having the exact same problems.


I got one of your witblits to breed and the yellow male. Shortly after that i noticed black spotting developing on one of your dragons. This is when i contacted you. At first, I thought it was paradox, but it later developed into a bleeding, cracking, raised scale looking skin cancer. It only developed on the top part of it's body, the underside was completely free of it. The dragons were partially blind. They also acted lanky/goofy when they walked around. The third witblits was sent to rob and vickie. They experienced the same problem with theirs, minus the black patches. This animal had continous respiratory issues, and was never able to breed. Shortly after the black spotting developed on my witblits, they started to lose weight and waste away very quickly. They also both came down with respiratory issues. This is all a sign of weakness. I very very rarely have respiratory issues with any other of my dragons.

The last time i contacted you I said to you that you should grow up all your dragons and see what is going on with them because others are not going to take it as easy as I have. This is also when I mentioned that I will probably scrap the whole project. I ended up doing so because my hets came from that back spotted male. I later ended up starting off over again with hets from another breeder.

You talk to marco from ghost dragons? He spent 5k on one of your dragons and it died. He never got any sort of replacement/refund. Have you REALLY spoken to any of the others who purchased from you? I call b.s. on your statements.

1). fertility issues/short hemipenes
2). very lean(teardrop shape) body structure
3). skin issues
4). lanky/goofy walk
5). partial blindness
6). eggs taking longer than normal to hatch(weakness)
7). wasting away
8). very slow growth
9). upper respiratory problems
10). small adult size
11). eggs taking longer than normal to hatch(weakness)

That makes 10 Jaques

Josh

I already started a continuation on the BOI because all of this def. belongs there http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d.php?t=319776 not here.

[quote=witblits;1460472]Please mods at this stage I think all comment is fair so do not block it.[quote]
I have already explained what is not acceptable in a discussion area. I'm sorry, but your opinion that all is fair doesn't change that. Things won't be "blocked"; but infraction will be given & people will be removed, as necessary. There is a BOI thread that can deal with the claims that are not suitable to this section. I realize that this will result in a bit of separation of the topic, and that is unfortunate in some ways; but it isn't THAT difficult to figure out. I'm willing to allow a bit of latitude regarding what goes where; but I suggest that people consider the content of their posts, and which thread is a better fit.

Jay I am still waiting for solid evidence of your absurd statements. You have made these accusations that Witblits is riddled with problems. I would like to know what these problems are?

Discussion of the problems here is fine, but it is difficult to do without making accusation....getting into proof of those claims is difficult in this section because it treads in BOI territory

If you make these comments you must be able to prove it.

careful....

wow guys im am sorry about my post before must have been looking at the photos of zeros or silverbacks from josh (cant tell them apart can only look in amazement)
as for the pics on her site and fb i guess you wouldnt post the ones that had problems up
guys again im sorry

["He bought them in from us in May 2009"

Your time line is all screwed up. I imported your animals in october 2010.

"Jay that is 7 months later and no issues"

two months later]

OK looks like both of us got it a bit wrong. Went through the records again. The AWB is dated 05/10/2009. Thats why I thought it was May. Turns out it was the 5th of Oct... And 2009 yes. That is indeed 5 nonths later than what I thought.

The rest of the dates are all more or less right I think.

[wow guys im am sorry about my post before must have been looking at the photos of zeros or silverbacks from josh (cant tell them apart can only look in amazement)
as for the pics on her site and fb i guess you wouldnt post the ones that had problems up
guys again im sorry]

Mike I am glad you mentioned this. Yes no one would post a pic of unhealthy looking dragons on their for sale page right. If I did have any sick/unhealthy/riddled with issues dragons then I would also not post them. This I think is normal. The point is the ones on our fb page and website are all healthy. I have only sold healthy animals to cleints. I have never sold an unhealthy animal.

The fact that two (out of a whole lot of them) of the Witblits developed problems a few months after they have been sold has never been a secret. I just can't see how people hold the breeder accountable for a strange thing like the skin problem. Look if all the Witblits developed skin problem the yes sure then one can say that witblits are riddled with skin problems. The same goes for the respiratory infection.

Almost every single breeder on this forum should kbow at least the basics of diseases and immunity. Given the fact that there a millions of dragons in USA and only thousands in SA one can safely assume that there are likely more diseases of beatrded dragons in USA. For example we are free of Adenovirus (and btw Jay this is why we are not allowed to legally import). Whe na naive dragon comes into contact with a 'new' disease/pathogen then the chance of that disease manifesting as servere illness is more likely. Perhaps there is some respiratory pathogen in USA that these dragons couldnot fend of? Who knows.

Then there is the very interesting fact about the link between the nervous system and the skin. Most of you wont know this unless you are adoctor/vet/histologist/embryologist etc.
During very early development of the embryo the nervous tissue and skin develop from the same cells. This means that a major defect in the skin could be associated with abnormal neurological system.
There is no doubt that witblits has a type of skin defect. It is not normal for a bearded dragon to be without pattern. The same goes for translucents, hypos, albinos etc. Even citrus, inferno is not normal. The reality is that there have been no major neurological abnormalities noted with colour varieties or paternless animals. It seems that the 'defect' is rather as a result of abnormal enzyme function and not a developmental problem as early on.
This has never been proven/disproven though so the possibility of the neurological signs/gait problems that Josh mentioned could be as a result of this. It is most unlikley though as then it would likely have been a problem from birth. (I just thought I'd share this as it is important to know what the potential problem can be with new morphs)

We have done our homework and have been very critical about the the health of our witblits. We have never sold a sick animal! This is a promise and a guarantee!

In an earlier post you stated you had sold to 8 people and only one had problems
Now it's 2 buyers have had known problems
Is that 3 out of 8 people and now knowing josh is having problems is that 50% of your clients having problems
It would be nice to know because that would be a large percentage of loss
More then the original 10-15% I thouht

I sent out a survey to all the buyers. I am waiting for their replies. As soon as all of them have replied I will give some feedback.

Originally Posted by witblits

I sent out a survey to all the buyers. I am waiting for their replies. As soon as all of them have replied I will give some feedback.

I need to ask this for everyone.
Did ALL of your customers receive this survey?

JimD. I emailed it to all of them yes. I hope they all received it.