AL Cortiz, BAD GUY

Originally Posted by Intense Herpetoculture

None, all Al and Joe would have had to do is stop the shipment, gotten new transit permits and a new health certificate. They thoght it would be better to take their chances and they got away with it this time.

As I said before...whiny little sour grapes bitch.

You realize that by referring to them as smugglers directly after posting an email from the authorities stating that they considered the situation a simple error you have given them a tailor made actionable statement don't you?

Originally Posted by Suncoast Herpetological

As I said before...whiny little sour grapes bitch.

You realize that by referring to them as smugglers directly after posting an email from the authorities stating that they considered the situation a simple error you have given them a tailor made actionable statement don't you?

Technically, they did smuggle the snakes in.

No one is going to bother about it and that is another matter entirely.

This is of course predicated on the fact that they had improper paperwork for the snakes that were brought in.

I would disagree Wes. Dictionary definitions of the word aside, smuggling implies intent. If the regulating agency decided it was a simple correctable error then it would not be considered smuggling.

IF they knew prior to importation that the snakes coming in were not the ones on their paperwork, it can be nothing but smuggling.

Wes Do you have Some Proof that they Knew before hand? ? If not I'm inclined to looking at it the way the officials have as a simple mistake made by the Exporter... Randy

Since neither butterball nor Joe will come on and say what was in their paperwork I don't know if they knew they were getting papers for one species and importing another but, for Joe at least, if he saw pictures prior to shipping, I don't see how he could NOT know they were a different species than was listed on the export documents which leads right back to smuggling.

Originally Posted by Wilomn

Since neither butterball nor Joe will come on and say what was in their paperwork I don't know if they knew they were getting papers for one species and importing another but, for Joe at least, if he saw pictures prior to shipping, I don't see how he could NOT know they were a different species than was listed on the export documents which leads right back to smuggling.

Because the species in question are visually extremely similar and scale counts are used to determine one from the other, if I have been following the semi-coherent ranting accusations posted by Justyn correctly. Not something most people would be inclined to do with the photographs they were provided unless they had some reason to suspect the species was being misrepresented.

I count the suboccular scales on photos labeled as indian pythons, because I'm a smartass who likes to get uppity given provocation. I won't count them on photos labeled as burms though. Pickin' up what I'm puttin' down?

Originally Posted by Seamus Haley

Because the species in question are visually extremely similar and scale counts are used to determine one from the other, if I have been following the semi-coherent ranting accusations posted by Justyn correctly. Not something most people would be inclined to do with the photographs they were provided unless they had some reason to suspect the species was being misrepresented.

I count the suboccular scales on photos labeled as indian pythons, because I'm a smartass who likes to get uppity given provocation. I won't count them on photos labeled as burms though. Pickin' up what I'm puttin' down?

Yup, got sticky fingers to prove it too.

However, butterball is a self proclaimed expert and Joe has been highly touted by some respectable people in this business which comes real close to justifying my faith in the knowledge that Joe at least knew what they were prior to their arrival.

Until one or the other says one way or the other, and if it's butterball doing the talking ...... well, I'd say speculation is not out of line.

Originally Posted by Wilomn

Yup, got sticky fingers to prove it too.

However, butterball is a self proclaimed expert and Joe has been highly touted by some respectable people in this business which comes real close to justifying my faith in the knowledge that Joe at least knew what they were prior to their arrival.

Maybe. It's true that the information required to determine that was present prior to the order being shipped, but it seems plausible that it went unnoticed due to the extreme visual similarities. I'm not in a position to make the character judgement either way; I'm just saying that it's not a case of someone filing the paperwork to import anoles and then having their source send them mislabeled komodos.

Photos were sent to Joe and Al beforehand, the same photos my exporter sent me. My shipment was delayed because I am waiting to new paperwork witht he correct and legal species name, otherwise I would have even gotten the EXACT SAME animals a week before Joe did. Joe beat me to them (the water cobras and the exact same Atheris) because he did not file for new paperwork.

The photos came from the collector, the guy who sells the animals to the exporters. Al and Joe's importer said he sent photos before the shipment was sent. The two species are VERY easy to tell apart. They did not change the name out of pure laziness (and maybe not wanting to spend additional money) to get new paperwork for transport through Europe and export from the DR Congo.