water / nile

Originally Posted by SwampDonkey

But you've learned something new, feel free to do some research on your own and expand your understanding rather than being upset about your present knowledge being wrong. Why on earth would you be defensive?

Who says I'm upset? Who says I'm defensive? I'm just unsure what it is exactly you kids want me to say.

Are you trying to convince me that water monitors get huge when taken care of the right way? If so, then I knew this already. Never disputed it.
Do I think water monitors are the 2nd largest lizard in the world? Yes.
Do I think water monitors have the potential to get 10 feet long? Sure...just as I believe there's the possibility of a 30-ft anaconda lurking in the Amazon or a 100-ft colossal squid in the darkest depths. I don't go around saying all anacondas will grow to 30 feet; only they have the potential.
Is it a fact that water monitors WILL get 10 feet with the proper husbandry? Not really....it's all relative. I certainly have not come across any proof. I would suspect if anyone had a 10 ft water monitor in captivity, we would have heard about it by now. But I admit I'm not a varanid enthusiast and I don't travel in those circles, so maybe I missed a memo.

All you guys have given is a few photos of some big monitors, none of which look close to 10 ft long. I'm not going to go into detail how hard it is to determine the length/size of a particular animal using only a photograph, but needless to say, I'm not convinced. But if you're simply trying to convey the message that water monitors get large, again, we get the message loud and clear. Old news to me personally.

I never claimed to be a monitor expert. I just go by what I pick up here and there working with reptiles for 20 years. Pardon me if I remain a little skeptical of a couple of kids posting a few candids on a forum. Not saying I don't believe you; just would like a little more proof.

For the record, I'm never upset when I learn something new. That's we're for, right? To learn stuff. I don't know who said it, but we're all students and we all are continually learning (or should be). The moment a person considers himself an "expert" is the day he should move to another hobby or vocation. No one is an expert here. Some of us have just learned a little more than others.
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I admit I may be a little defensive when someone makes ignorant and insulting remark at my profession (graphic design), which is how I use the artistic gift & talent God gave me to pay my bills and put food on the table for my wife and child. Yeah, maybe I get a little defensive about things like that. Can you blame me?

We wont likely see 10ft salavtors in captivity because those (Sri Lankan) animals are off limits to the pet trade. The captive animal in treecoc's pic is likely close to 9 though, and its a smaller Sumatran water. Ive heard first hand accounts from people who've actually seen big dragons in the wild and they say they are just much more massive than a water of the same length. I believe that, but I wold also be interested in seeing the Sri Lankan animals compared to the Komodo. They are quite bulky.

"But I admit I'm not a varanid enthusiast and I don't travel in those circles"
"All you guys have given is a few photos of some big monitors, none of which look close to 10 ft long. I'm not going to go into detail how hard it is to determine the length/size of a particular animal using only a photograph, but needless to say, I'm not convinced"
"I never claimed to be a monitor expert. I just go by what I pick up here and there working with reptiles for 20 years. Pardon me if I remain a little skeptical of a couple of kids posting a few candids on a forum. Not saying I don't believe you; just would like a little more proof."

Here's some of your replies quote boy - proof you know very little about monitors. I don't recall any one stating their "experts" nor implying that. You however seemed to be the "expert" because a photo looked unreal due to your "shadow skills" which brings the point of your newbie knowledge of these lizards. You got proof and then debate the pictures.
None of the photos claimed 10 foot lizards, even if their was a photo of a 10 footer you'll doubt that to. I don't need photo's to make my claims - understanding and keeping these lizards has proven it. Sorry some of these big lizard keepers didn't make it a point to let you know ( because your so important )how big their current charges are. I'll write it on the moon for you so the world will know to get in touch with you. Also you replied to this old post as well, so point your finger up your ass. No one cares about your stupid effing job or skills making shadows..

Discussions sometimes turn into debates...it happens even in the best of circumstances; but anybody that's going to be involved with a discussion of this sort should be "adult" enough to do so without becoming abusive.

As long as I've now stepped in....
Many of the long held "average" lengths have been surpassed in captive animals - not really a huge shock given the consistency of conditions and abundance of food. However, it will be interesting in the years to come to see how these animals fare...it has been shown that heavily feeding many reptiles to grow them bigger or faster (or both) has a detrimental impact on longevity. I don't keep monitors now - haven't since the late 90s - but I've seen the growth rates increased significantly over the years. Even back then, I probably wouldn't have labeled some of the things I've seen in this thread as impossible....but I would have considered them unnatural, and perhaps unhealthy. My not currently involved with the species mind doesn't see those things any differently now, despite the adamance and enthusiasm of a few people.

You however seemed to be the "expert" because a photo looked unreal due to your "shadow skills" which brings the point of your newbie knowledge of these lizards.

Thanks for the compliment, although I concede that I am not an "expert" [read last post]. I'm still learning, remember?

You got proof and then debate the pictures.

What proof? I was just thinking about this last night...the answer is simple; take the stats of the largest documented komodo, water monitor, and croc monitor, and then compare length and weight. This is what I will believe. Beyond that, everything else is hearsay and rumors. As I said before, photos can be faked, staged, or altered; anyone with a brain should know this. Until someone breaks out the measuring tape and livestock scale and we get some real stats, I'm open-minded to the possibilities, but I'm not going to go around telling everyone this species gets such-and-such size.

A few years ago, someone came into the pet store I worked and swore up and down they had a 8-ft ball python. Instead of trying to argue the unliklihood of this, I got enthusiastic and encouraged them to bring it by so I could see it. I have yet to see them again.

I've seen big monitors. I know they get big. I don't understand why you are trying so hard to convince me of something I already know.

None of the photos claimed 10 foot lizards, even if their was a photo of a 10 footer you'll doubt that to. I don't need photo's to make my claims -

and yet in your last post, you stated "here is more "proof" as well as other varanids you don't understand -" following by a set of 3 photos. If you don't need photos to make your claims, why do you still post them?

understanding and keeping these lizards has proven it.

Once more, (I get the feeling I'm repeating myself), I heartily agree. I just wish the keepers who have actually kept these lizards would offer prove..because you're not doing the greatest job.

Sorry some of these big lizard keepers didn't make it a point to let you know ( because your so important )how big their current charges are. I'll write it on the moon for you so the world will know to get in touch with you.

I think you're taking this waaayy too seriously. If this conversation was, say, about African house snakes (a species I much more familiar with and I may assume you are not)....I'm not going to berate anyone for not knowing something about them. I mean, look at how many species of reptiles there are total; thousands. I certainly don't expect every herper out there to keep track of every single detail on every single sub-species or locality of of every type of reptile, nor do I insult them if they get something wrong. Thats a lot of information to keep up with, and we really only have time for the species we're passionate about. I don't expect a personal text message every time a development is made with varanid husbandry anymore than you expect an email notification every time something new happens with house snakes.

I think you need to pull your head out of your rear and realize this.

I've said more than once that I'm not a monitor hobbyist. It just seems like you find that fact insulting. They're cool, but not everyone is into monitors. Chill.

I like to learn new information, but I don't like people using weak evidence to justify their claims. You come on here with your first post, claiming that water monitors could rival komodos in size and post a few pics. For someone who claims they don't need photos to back themselves up, I just think you were a little miffed when I implied one of them could have been faked. (emphasis that I said it looked fake, I never definitively said it WAS fake!). Get over it.

No one cares about your stupid effing job or skills making shadows

Wow...before I was merely assuming I was dealing with a child. This immature statement pretty much confirms it. Maybe one day, you'll grow up and learn there's a little more to life than trying prove someone right on a forum, but I'm not holding my breath. Cheers.
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How about this...can we agree that I don't really know a whole lot about monitors, but I still respect them for the awesome creatures they are, and I find them fascinating and like to learn what I can when I can about them from the right sources...

...and can we also agree that you apparently don't know anything about graphic design, photography, or anything artistic in nature and likewise, have no respect for any of it?

It was you that brought your job into this post. Myself and SwampDonkey made the point that salvator have the real ability to grow very large. My photo's ( which you seem to doubt ) showed examples. Nothing more - and nothing "proving" a 10 foot lizard of any sort. The second batch with the large water @ 8'4 was posted to show in a few months or maybe a year he should be close to if not 9 feet. Still seems you think this might be fake as well. Whatever. Stats are great, however if punched up any of these lizards mentioned your stats would be all over the place. Is it because their not true? or because the photo of said animal can't be found. My 2.5 meter ornate monitor posting is a stat - I have never seen it but read the article and knowing this species have no doubt to the validity of it. I never seen a wild albino snake, but I'm sure their out there.

Little spin, since you feel I have been harsh. If you had a female Lamprophis in the 6 foot range without photo's I doubt I would call you out, call your photos possibly fake, and require proof. Now if you claimed she was 10 foot and weighed 20 pounds that would raise a few red flags. This has not been the case, I could see if I said "water monitors get 12 feet and weigh 300 lbs and outclass komodos - here's a pic of a 6 footer on it's way " yeah, that would be bs and a good enough reason to back up. But that is not the case.

FYI - not that it matters I took 4 years of graphic arts in hs, and was in litho for 10 plus years..

It was you that brought your job into this post.

It doesn't matter. It's one thing to to say you don't understand or know much about something (quite like I have said to you about varanids). But to say "Mr. Graphic Designer" laced with contempt and to say something like "no one cares about your effing job or skills" is a pretty harsh retort, just because someone may agree with about the size of a lizard. I mean, I'm not losing sleep over it or anything, but I was (and still am) getting the impression that you are very upset that I questioned your photo. I made an observation based on my experience with photoshop. I have seen firsthand what can be done with the software. I've seen images that looked so real I would have sworn they were a real photograph had I not know otherwise. Likewise, anyone familiar with this can explain in detail that certain elements in an photo are easily replicated or faked. I noticed some of these elements in that first photo you posted. Apparently, you are not very familiar with this area of graphic design.

Myself and SwampDonkey made the point that salvator have the real ability to grow very large. My photo's ( which you seem to doubt ) showed examples. Nothing more - and nothing "proving" a 10 foot lizard of any sort. The second batch with the large water @ 8'4 was posted to show in a few months or maybe a year he should be close to if not 9 feet. Still seems you think this might be fake as well. Whatever.

Never said they were fake, and that I thought they were. I accept them at face value = water monitors can grow large, in access of 7-8 feet (again, something I already knew).

Stats are great, however if punched up any of these lizards mentioned your stats would be all over the place. Is it because their not true? or because the photo of said animal can't be found. My 2.5 meter ornate monitor posting is a stat - I have never seen it but read the article and knowing this species have no doubt to the validity of it. I never seen a wild albino snake, but I'm sure their out there.

My only point there is anyone can post or say anything. You coming on here and claiming your ornate is 2.5 meters is no different than the guy who claimed his ball python was 8 feet. I don't have the animal in front of me with a tape measure in hand, so all I have to go on is your word. If the animal in question was recorded by a herpetologist or whatever (someone with credentials, I guess), the credibility is increased. But you're just a kid on a forum. You could be lying. You may not be lying, but based on some of the immature comments you've made, I may be less inclined to take you seriously anyway. I'm speaking hypothetically now, but do you get what I'm saying? Anyone can come on here and say "this herp gets this big."

Little spin, since you feel I have been harsh. If you had a female Lamprophis in the 6 foot range without photo's I doubt I would call you out, call your photos possibly fake, and require proof. Now if you claimed she was 10 foot and weighed 20 pounds that would raise a few red flags. This has not been the case, I could see if I said "water monitors get 12 feet and weigh 300 lbs and outclass komodos - here's a pic of a 6 footer on it's way " yeah, that would be bs and a good enough reason to back up. But that is not the case.

Not to belabor the point, but that's not too far off from claiming they could rival a komodo (which you did) and posting the pic of the 8'4" animal saying "here's one on its way."

Originally Posted by MDC_Ophiuchus

It doesn't matter. It's one thing to to say you don't understand or know much about something (quite like I have said to you about varanids). But to say "Mr. Graphic Designer" laced with contempt and to say something like "no one cares about your effing job or skills" is a pretty harsh retort, just because someone may agree with about the size of a lizard. I mean, I'm not losing sleep over it or anything, but I was (and still am) getting the impression that you are very upset that I questioned your photo. I made an observation based on my experience with photoshop. I have seen firsthand what can be done with the software. I've seen images that looked so real I would have sworn they were a real photograph had I not know otherwise. Likewise, anyone familiar with this can explain in detail that certain elements in an photo are easily replicated or faked. I noticed some of these elements in that first photo you posted. Apparently, you are not very familiar with this area of graphic design.



Never said they were fake, and that I thought they were. I accept them at face value = water monitors can grow large, in access of 7-8 feet (again, something I already knew).



My only point there is anyone can post or say anything. You coming on here and claiming your ornate is 2.5 meters is no different than the guy who claimed his ball python was 8 feet. I don't have the animal in front of me with a tape measure in hand, so all I have to go on is your word. If the animal in question was recorded by a herpetologist or whatever (someone with credentials, I guess), the credibility is increased. But you're just a kid on a forum. You could be lying. You may not be lying, but based on some of the immature comments you've made, I may be less inclined to take you seriously anyway. I'm speaking hypothetically now, but do you get what I'm saying? Anyone can come on here and say "this herp gets this big."



Not to belabor the point, but that's not too far off from claiming they could rival a komodo (which you did) and posting the pic of the 8'4" animal saying "here's one on its way."

Hey well you started it "pal". I find myself in the position, once again, arguing with some ignorant pet-shop guy who probably killed more monitors than he's raised. And sorry for the brutal honesty, but I dont give a damn about how you make a living or support your family. I care about it less than I do graphics design (not at all). When I said "Mr Graphics designer" I did not intend for you to perceive that comment as being "laced" with contempt, because it was absolutely saturated with it.
Sorry bud, you you're wrong. Now stop being a baby and do some homework so this doesn't happen again.

It does not matter how you feel about the photos and what you make of them. We can argue all day about what you know and I know to adnaseum. How you feel or think my credit is worth is pointless - I have over 20 years working with varanids and in my time learned that indeed with proper husbandry some of these averages can be quite easily obtained. Proving various issues with varanids with you is pointless. Maybe if you have kept as many as I have for extended amounts of time you would see the validity. Photos or not.
Your "credit" for being in the pet industry pretty much says it all.

Another point, my 2.5 meter ornate is documented and IF you had any experience with this species you would know. Go look it up.

Your "job" was posted by you, pal - who's being the kid? "I'm mr.shadowman" yet you keep replying....enough said.