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Old 10-05-2004, 12:22 PM   #1
vscampbell
Northern Pines Puking!

I have several Northern Pine hatchlings, from different clutches, and I'm having a tough time keeping food down them. They eat and then puke up the meal several days later. Ambient is 74F with 80-84F belly heat areas in the back of ten gallon aquariums. Pine shavings on the bottom of the cages, water available sufficient for soaking. I use a PE2 temp gun for monitoring, as well as two room thermometers as a double check for accuracy. Hide spots are available, but they don't use them a lot, prefering to bury in the pine shavings. Room is a dedicated snake room, very quiet. They've been checked for parasites and proto. I've tried mice, furry rats, etc. They puke everything up except pinkies, but they don't puke every time and not all of the hatchlings puke. I could just feed pinkies for while, but 18" pituophis hatchlings EAT A LOT of pinkies.

Any ideas?

Val Campbell
 
Old 10-05-2004, 05:16 PM   #2
evansnakes
On the practical side of things, aquariums are not ideal. If you are using a screen top that is where all your heat is exiting your tank. Try covering 1/2-2/3 of the top with a towel or something. They should be a bot warmer anyhow as the outdoor and indoor temps are dropping this time of year.

On the other hand, many colubrids that regurg have digestive track or intestinal blockage or other problems that can be solved by a dose of Flagyl. Almost always after a single dose your problem will be solved.
 
Old 11-02-2004, 11:43 AM   #3
Stevefromsd
What is Flagyl?
 
Old 11-03-2004, 10:15 PM   #4
oldherper
Pituophis are notorious for regurgitating and vomiting. It is important to make the distinction between the two. Regurgitation is bringing the food back up from the stomach. This will occur within 24 hours of eating. Vomiting is bringing the food back up from the intestinal tract. That occurs after about 24 hours of eating.

The two major causes of regurgitating and vomiting with small Pituophis is feeding food items that are too large (or feeding too many food items), and temperatures. Pituophis tend to do better if kept at slightly lower temperatures than other colubrids. 85 degrees (IMHO) is too hot. I keep my Pine Snakes at 70 degrees on the cool end of the cage and 78 degrees on the warm end.
 
Old 11-03-2004, 10:20 PM   #5
oldherper
Quote:
Originally posted by Stevefromsd
What is Flagyl?

Flagyl is a trade name for Metronidazole. It is an antimicrobial that is used to eliminate protozoans, such as Giardia and Entamoeba, etc. It is a prodrug that is activated by water. It kills the bugs by taking away their ability to replicate DNA. It can be toxic (nephrotoxic) if improperly dosed, and it's use in gravid females calls for caution. Some species of reptiles are very sensitive to Metronidazole.
 
Old 11-04-2004, 01:05 AM   #6
gila7150
I agree with Oldherper's advice. When in doubt, feed smaller meals than you think they can handle. Some people push their colubrids to promote faster growth but this is a really bad idea when it comes to Pituophis.

Sometimes Pituophis can get into a chronic regurgitation cycle that can be difficult to reverse. I would recommend fasting them for 10-14 days (providing they have good body weight).
After the fasting period I would try starting them on very small meals. I'd also try bringing the temps down a little.

A fecal exam couldn't hurt......any other animals in your collection having problems?
 
Old 11-04-2004, 01:13 AM   #7
gila7150
Oops....I missed the part where you said you checked them for parasites already.

You mentioned that they puke up mice and furry rats. Have you tried mice fuzzies.....that's what I usually start my hatchlings on. Unlike ratsnakes, milks, kings,...if the prey item leaves a large bulge in a pit, it's probably going to come back up.

Try bringing the warm spot down to 80-82F and if they only have one hidebox, make sure it's on the cool side.
Good luck,
Chris
 
Old 11-04-2004, 06:42 AM   #8
oldherper
Chris is right about those points.

The reason that you need to lay off the feed for a while when a pit regurgitates or vomits is that the action of bringing the food back up irritates the lining of the digestive tract, which makes it more likely to happen again. You need to give the snake at least a week to 10 days to heal before you try it again.

Also, on the subject of medications...never, ever try to medicate one of your snakes without the direction of a veterinarian unless you know for sure exactly what pathogen you are trying to eliminate and fully understand the drug you are using. Some of the drugs used to treat for different parasites are dangerous to the animal if improperly administered. Some of them are safe for use in some species, but will possibly kill another species. For instance, the vermifuge Ivermectin can be safely used to eliminate things like tapeworms in most species, but may kill turtles and tortoises and Indigo Snakes.
 
Old 11-05-2004, 10:15 AM   #9
sumguy
low 80's is ideal max temp for pits? does this apply to black pines as well? just curious. keep high end in mid to upper 80s. mine are doing well but have lots of attitude and are shy eaters. back on topic - are they doing better now?
 
Old 11-05-2004, 10:42 AM   #10
gila7150
Hey Bruce,
If your snakes are thriving at those temps I wouldn't change anything. I think that the size of the enclosure has a lot to do with it. As long as the cage is large enough to provide a temperature gradient the snake will usually find the temp it likes.
It's more difficult to provide a temperature gradient for a hatchling that's kept in a small rack system so I usually prefer to keep things a little cooler. I live in FL so my pines would probably thrive at room temp but I use flex watt to give them a slightly warmer area they can get to if they want.
I've never had a problem with any of my northerns or blacks but my jani and my vertebralis seem more sensitive to higher temps.

Still, if one of my pits started puking the first thing I'd try was lowering the temps and feeding smaller/less frequent meals.
 

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