Josh of OUTBACK REPTILES

Originally Posted by ApexPredatorBoids

I'm just really trying to understand the rationale. Unless there's something I'm missing that implies his hemipene picture is deliberately misleading, why give him such a hassle? I can't remember seeing much precedent for requiring such stringent proof of improper sexing. It's not as if sexing snakes is an exact science, where X subcaudal scales deep automaticallyindicates a female.

The photo shows the head of one animal and the tail of another...I don't think it's enough for the seller to verify that the animal is indeed the one that he sold. If I sold an animal and was told I had misssexed it, I would want to see a photo or video that allowed me to verify that it was my animal and verify the sex before I had it returned. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Originally Posted by FireStorm

The photo shows the head of one animal and the tail of another...I don't think it's enough for the seller to verify that the animal is indeed the one that he sold. If I sold an animal and was told I had misssexed it, I would want to see a photo or video that allowed me to verify that it was my animal and verify the sex before I had it returned. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

I don't think that is what was being asked, but I do agree more pictures would be a good thing.

I think what Dan meant was why is any of this being brought up?

"How do we know the seller mis-sexed the snake as stated the op didn't sex the snake, leaving that little gap that just maybe the so called friend who has been breeding for 25 years isn't being honest...
( This reasonable doubt is placed here by the Op who didn't sex an animal after receiving said animal)
Like I stated before even if the person and or company is reputable WHEN EVER RECEIVING AN ANIMAL ALWAYS CHECK THE SEX OF THE ANIMAL ALWAYS!!!
The OP even if new states he has a friend who has been breeding for 25 years... so getting the sex of the animal checked out shouldn't of been a problem...

Problems with the OP'S Claim which would in honesty put Outback Reptile's in the clear to fix or make right the so called "problem"
1. The Op waited longer than the Normal 7 day policy... to report any problems... ( I believe Outback has a 7 day policy been awhile since I made a purchase with them )
2. The so called problem wasn't even noticed until after 2 weeks of the animal being in the Op's care and wasn't even noticed by the Op it was noticed afterwards by a third party ( who should be named since the Op brought that up.... IMO that falls under the no anonymous third party quote policy which is a NO NO )which means the said animal switched hands between a different party. ( I don't know of anyone who offer's there policy's to extend to a third party... )
3. The Op failed to check the sex of said animal to ensure it was indeed a female ( Yes it happens maybe Outback sent out a mis-sexed animal but we will never know because the Op didn't check the sex of said animal )

Three strike's your out.... there's three reason's that give reasonable doubt to the Op's claims... and three reasons that could be used to prove that Outback did no wrong here and the Op and or the third party is trying to pull a fast one...."

Talking about offers being extended to third parties? It's not like the OP SOLD the snake to someone else who found the issue. What if a newbie buys a snake and has a more experienced friend sex a new snake? Since it wasn't the actual buyer that popped or probed the snake it doesn't count? A sex guarantee from a seller is no longer valid, because someone other than the buyer sexed it? LUDACRIS.

I also agree that considering this is a sexing issue, time shouldn't be a big deal. If we are talking years okay...I get that. But a couple of months? Sex isn't something the OP can change. Sex is nothing like an illness. Being mis sexed can NOT be the OP's fault.

The seller should also be QT'ing if he decides to take the animal back regardless.

I also have the feeling that Josh/Ian/Outback, will make this right.

In all honesty, the photo the OP gave (see below) does not really prove anything to me. The whole snake is not in the photograph. The head and tail in the photograph look like they belong to two completely different snakes. In addition, milksnakes and kingsnakes look very similar, I can't even identify this image to species with that tiny photograph.

I think it would be reasonable of the seller to request better photos to make sure there isn't some mixup at the friend's house. Once an animal leaves the care of the original buyer, the chances for things like this happening increases, especially among snakes that look so gosh darn similar and freely interbreed (the milksnake/kingsnake complex).

I think Josh's request to meet up at the White Plains show was good. That way he could sex the animal himself and provide you with an immediate replacement, sexed with probes or popping right in front of you. I also agree with Radera. This brush fire isn't a disease, it's a simple (potentially) missexed animal. Is it frustrating? Sure. Is it the end of the world? Not with an honest guy like Josh who I'm confident will make good on his end. Mistakes happen. It's not like thayeri are ball pythons where you have to wait 2-3 years to breed them, but again, I would've sexed them myself long before then.

I don't mean to imply any dishonesty on your part, and I certainly don't want to increase the drama here. Please, ask your friend to take a video or take pictures of the entire snake. If your friend has been in the business for 25 years like you state, he HAS to have a probe set on hand. Have him take a series of images... before, during, and after (with the probe lined up against the tail so we can count belly scales). Like I said before, I would be more than happy to temporarily host any images or video for you.

By providing better images, we'll be able to eliminate all doubt that this was a mix up by your friend. Also, if you can upload any photos taken by Josh of the snake you purchased from him, then we can compare both images and be 100% positive that the snake in question is genuinely male.

Originally Posted by radera5

Sex is nothing like an illness.

Great quote.

Originally Posted by radera5

I also agree that considering this is a sexing issue, time shouldn't be a big deal.

Perhaps the sooner the better within reason. Since there has been no qt, if illness emerges in one of the collections or in this snake, things might get more complicated.

Originally Posted by radera5

also have the feeling that Josh/Ian/Outback, will make this right.

I think so too.

Originally Posted by Lucille

Great quote.




Perhaps the sooner the better within reason. Since there has been no qt, if illness emerges in one of the collections or in this snake, things might get more complicated.



I think so too.

This was actually something I was thinking about while writing my last post. Things could get bad if the OP ends up sending the snake back for a refund and it is sick.

Thanks for bringing up that thought

For the record, I completely agree that ANY issues are better found sooner rather than later.

Originally Posted by radera5

This was actually something I was thinking about while writing my last post. Things could get bad if the OP ends up sending the snake back for a refund and it is sick.

Thanks for bringing up that thought

For the record, I completely agree that ANY issues are better found sooner rather than later.

I should have added that I am not saying that I think this is the case, just another IF.

An idea.
Josh prepays for the snake to get sent back. Josh sexes it, takes pix. If it is a male, the buyer gets a full refund. If it is a female, shipping back is deducted from the refund.

Lucille, I think that's a bit complicated. Shipping back gets deducted from the refund if the animal is female? If the animal is female, there would be no refund, and then Paul would have to pay double shipping (shipping to Josh, and shipping back to Paul). Better photographs is by far cheaper and easier. I think the double shipping costs would far exceed the value of the snake at that point. Thayeri don't exactly command top dollar.

If it is a female, then the original shipping should be deducted for the refund too.

If it is a male then Josh should cover all the shipping.

The OP should provide the picture/video evidence though. It is a lot easier to make a male look female than a female look male. There is nothing to "pop", and if Josh were to say it came back and was a female, there would be a debate about whether it was legit. One video or picture of one snake showing that it is the snake that Josh sent and is a male would be great.

The buyer wants a refund. To just get this settled, if the snake goes back to the seller and stays there, a refund could be issued and the buyer happy. If the sexing shows it is in fact a female as sold, seller should not have to end up paying shipping back.

Originally Posted by endrin

I am looking for a full refund