Paypal's Policy Update "You Can't Sue Us" lol

Got an email today lol....luckily I refuse to use them anymore...but figured we could all chit chat about it lol....anyone else get this email?

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PayPal recently posted a new Policy Update which includes changes to the PayPal User Agreement. The update to the User Agreement is effective November 1, 2012 and contains several changes, including changes that affect how claims you and PayPal have against each other are resolved. You will, with limited exception, be required to submit claims you have against PayPal to binding and final arbitration, unless you opt out of the Agreement to Arbitrate (Section 14.3) by December 1, 2012. Unless you opt out: (1) you will only be permitted to pursue claims against PayPal on an individual basis, not as a plaintiff or class member in any class or representative action or proceeding and (2) you will only be permitted to seek relief (including monetary, injunctive, and declaratory relief) on an individual basis.

You can view this Policy Update by logging in to your PayPal account. To log in to your account, go to https://www.paypal.com and enter your member log in information. Once you are logged in, look at the Notifications section on the top right side of the page for the latest Policy Updates. We encourage you to review the Policy Update to familiarize yourself with all of the changes that have been made.

If you need help logging in, go to our Help Center by clicking the Help link located in the upper right-hand corner of any PayPal page.

Sincerely,

PayPal

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(they made sure to make it a huge pain in the booty to opt out lol)

Opt-Out Procedure.

You can choose to reject this Agreement to Arbitrate ("opt out") by mailing us a written opt-out notice ("Opt-Out Notice"). For new PayPal users, the Opt-Out Notice must be postmarked no later than 30 Days after the date you accept the User Agreement for the first time. If you are already a current PayPal user and previously accepted the User Agreement prior to the introduction of this Agreement to Arbitrate, the Opt-Out Notice must be postmarked no later than December 1, 2012. You must mail the Opt-Out Notice to PayPal, Inc., Attn: Litigation Department, 2211 North First Street, San Jose, CA 95131.

The Opt-Out Notice must state that you do not agree to this Agreement to Arbitrate and must include your name, address, phone number, and the email address(es) used to log in to the PayPal account(s) to which the opt-out applies. You must sign the Opt-Out Notice for it to be effective. This procedure is the only way you can opt out of the Agreement to Arbitrate. If you opt out of the Agreement to Arbitrate, all other parts of the User Agreement, including all other provisions of Section 14 (Disputes with PayPal), will continue to apply. Opting out of this Agreement to Arbitrate has no effect on any previous, other, or future arbitration agreements that you may have with us. "

Wow that sucks. I use paypal for a ton of things but I'm always convinced something bad might happen and they'll just tell me "sorry can't do anything about it lol". Thanks for posting this, normally I just skim over their emails and delete them.

I wasn't aware that any business could exclude themselves from legal proceedings merely by saying they want it to be so.

In fact, arbitration clauses are becoming more common, and favored, to resolve disputes in contracts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitration_clause


I can't remember back when I joined Paypal, it has been a number of years, but I'm sure I must have clicked on a 'I accept' screen having to do with their TOS when I signed up.

Here, from Paypal:

By clicking "I Agree", "I Accept"; or by submitting payment information through the Service you agree to the terms and conditions of this Agreement, the PayPal Privacy Policy, and any documents incorporated by reference. You further agree that this User Agreement forms a legally binding contract between you and PayPal, and that this Agreement constitutes "a writing signed by You" under any applicable law or regulation. Any rights not expressly granted herein are reserved by PayPal, Inc. This Agreement is subject to change by PayPal without prior notice (unless prior notice is required by law), by posting of the revised Agreement on the PayPal website. Descriptions of material amendments to this Agreement will be posted in advance on the PayPal website in the "Policy Updates" section that is displayed to you when you log in to your account. You can also set your Preferences to receive e-mail notification of all policy updates. You may review the current Agreement prior to initiating a transaction at any time at our User Agreement page.

I think this only applies to class action lawsuits, since it says you can still arbitrate with them on an individual basis.

For anyone interested: eBay has the same changes going on. If you want to opt out of that too, you have to go through the same process as with PayPal.

Does it really matter in today's legal system? I hear constantly about cases with agreements such as this within tos being set aside and lawsuits still going forward.

Originally Posted by Dennis Hultman

Does it really matter in today's legal system? I hear constantly about cases with agreements such as this within tos being set aside and lawsuits still going forward.

I hear sometimes about agreements set aside because they are 'unconscionable'. Is that what you are hearing?

Heck, to me this sounds every bit as legally enforceable as a crook first sliding a note under your door stating that his entering your home and your failing to immediately stop him from doing so signifies your agreement to not press charges against him if he is caught engaging in illegal activities. Your failing to comply with the instructions to opt out of this agreement with a notarized statement that you decline the conditions of that letter makes that letter a legal contact.

Otherwise, if this is legally acceptable, I think I'm going to go print up a sign and put it on both ends of the public easement through my property stating that anyone using that road agrees by such use to pay me half of their yearly gross income. Their only recourse is to signify that they decline this agreement by NOT driving on that road.

Heck, this has possibilities....

Originally Posted by WebSlave

Heck, to me this sounds every bit as legally enforceable as a crook first sliding a note under your door stating that his entering your home and your failing to immediately stop him from doing so signifies your agreement to not press charges against him if he is caught engaging in illegal activities. Your failing to comply with the instructions to opt out of this agreement with a notarized statement that you decline the conditions of that letter makes that letter a legal contact.

Otherwise, if this is legally acceptable, I think I'm going to go print up a sign and put it on both ends of the public easement through my property stating that anyone using that road agrees by such use to pay me half of their yearly gross income. Their only recourse is to signify that they decline this agreement by NOT driving on that road.

Heck, this has possibilities....

While there are other problems with your examples (civil vs criminal, and the law of easements) in neither example did you say anything about a previous written agreement that both sides agree to, allowing future changes by one party, which is what Paypal has and which must be signed by the user prior to use or they cannot become a Paypal member.

You have a similar take-it-or-leave-it deal to some (not future) of your requirements in your privacy agreement (below, right) where if the applying member does not agree, they simply cannot join.

" Some of this information is REQUIRED in order to use this site, and becomes publicly viewable once your account is created. You can choose to not provide this information, but in such a case, your participation in this site will not be accepted and your registration rejected"

Parties are allowed to make civil contractual agreements about future possible disagreements and how they will be resolved (prenuptual agreements, for instance). It has been done for a while now.

Originally Posted by Lucille

Parties are allowed to make civil contractual agreements about future possible disagreements and how they will be resolved (prenuptual agreements, for instance). It has been done for a while now.

To use this as an example to the previous question to me, Depending on the judge and the view of the prenuptial agreements, they get thrown out too. Nothing is really set in stone. Heck a judge's personal opinions about how fair a prenup is can actually cause it to be thrown out. It happens more than people might suspect.

Everything seems negotiable in the end no-matter previous agreements.

Prime example of nothing really matters is the GM bailout. Letter of the law was investors would have had a higher stake returned and protection than the union but the letter of the law wasn't followed and the union received preferential treatment over investors.

I'm not stating that was the correct thing to do or not. Just stating legally it wasn't the normal process.