whats everyones opinion of the scalless cornsnakes?

these gonna be as popul;ar as many of the other morphs or gonna be hit or miss, im curious what everyone thinks, thanks

I think visually, they're wicked looking. However, I think it's a fine line in regards to ethics. Their has been a handful of studies done on various scaleless reptile species that state they are susceptible to dehydration and have sun sensitivity. I've even read some studies that suggest the animals are in constant pain. I think more scientific studies should be done before they're mass produced for the public. If in fact they do have health issues, ethically I think the breeders need to look at the quality of life of the animal before their wallet.

Originally Posted by TripleMoonsExotic

I think visually, they're wicked looking. However, I think it's a fine line in regards to ethics. Their has been a handful of studies done on various scaleless reptile species that state they are susceptible to dehydration and have sun sensitivity. I've even read some studies that suggest the animals are in constant pain. I think more scientific studies should be done before they're mass produced for the public. If in fact they do have health issues, ethically I think the breeders need to look at the quality of life of the animal before their wallet.

Now if these studies were to find that these animals were healthy and happy, I'd love to own one. More needs to be known about them first before any more selective breeding is done in my opinion.

Originally Posted by TripleMoonsExotic

I think visually, they're wicked looking. However, I think it's a fine line in regards to ethics. Their has been a handful of studies done on various scaleless reptile species that state they are susceptible to dehydration and have sun sensitivity. I've even read some studies that suggest the animals are in constant pain. I think more scientific studies should be done before they're mass produced for the public. If in fact they do have health issues, ethically I think the breeders need to look at the quality of life of the animal before their wallet.

i would love to see these studies, to back that up, constant pain? were the studies conducted by peta? that alone is enough to tell me these studies are a little far fetcdh, what kind of reptile? what kind of studies exactly, ive know people whom have had scaless texas rats since the 80's health breeding etc no diff then their scaled counter parts

Originally Posted by TripleMoonsExotic

I think visually, they're wicked looking. However, I think it's a fine line in regards to ethics. Their has been a handful of studies done on various scaleless reptile species that state they are susceptible to dehydration and have sun sensitivity. I've even read some studies that suggest the animals are in constant pain. I think more scientific studies should be done before they're mass produced for the public. If in fact they do have health issues, ethically I think the breeders need to look at the quality of life of the animal before their wallet.

I agree 100%. On a totally OT note, it makes me wonder about the "silky" beardies I saw at Saturday's show here. I was told you have to soak them every other day and rub lotion on them at least once a week, which is definitely not something you'd normally do with a beardie (to my limited knowledge). Anyone know if that's the case with these snakes, too? I guess it's important to keep their skin from drying out; just looking at them, it's easy to see how they could be more susceptible to dehydration and/or damage.

That said, they are completely wicked-looking. I'm not generally a corn person but I'd consider having a scaleless one if I could be assured that it wasn't the equivalent of buying, say, a spider ball with a wobble or a pug dog with asthma. Certain traits we breed for can so easily cause unintended/undesirable health results (unexpected, as with the spider balls, or expected, as with dogs that have no snout to speak of).

Originally Posted by timebider

which is definitely not something you'd normally do with a beardie (to my limited knowledge).

That should have read, "with normal beardies."

With respect to the OP's intended question: hard to tell. There is always a faction that seeks out "freaks" (two-headed snakes, etc.) and this might appeal to them. Hard to see how scaleless corns would gain widespread appeal much beyond that. They're expensive (at least for now) and probably somewhat higher-maintenance than the average corn. And one of the big appeals for corn fans is corns' general hardiness and ease of care. IMHO.

Originally Posted by timebider

That should have read, "with normal beardies."

With respect to the OP's intended question: hard to tell. There is always a faction that seeks out "freaks" (two-headed snakes, etc.) and this might appeal to them. Hard to see how scaleless corns would gain widespread appeal much beyond that. They're expensive (at least for now) and probably somewhat higher-maintenance than the average corn. And one of the big appeals for corn fans is corns' general hardiness and ease of care. IMHO.

As far as their care... When I was taking care of them, there was no special care. They were kept on newspaper (obviously you dont want them on Sani-Chips). And we never did anything extra with them, just made sure that there was always water and misted them once a week. Oh and all their food had to be pre killed...

Originally Posted by annmikeal

As far as their care... When I was taking care of them, there was no special care. They were kept on newspaper (obviously you dont want them on Sani-Chips). And we never did anything extra with them, just made sure that there was always water and misted them once a week. Oh and all their food had to be pre killed...

This would be different care compared to the norm...

Originally Posted by annmikeal
As far as their care... When I was taking care of them, there was no special care. They were kept on newspaper (obviously you dont want them on Sani-Chips). And we never did anything extra with them, just made sure that there was always water and misted them once a week. Oh and all their food had to be pre killed...

Originally Posted by TripleMoonsExotic

This would be different care compared to the norm...

seriously? anything but news paper is somessy i cant stand it, you know sounds like your difficult no matter what

According to scientific literature, water loss is the same between scaleless snakes and scaled snakes. Granted, this is one of only two papers I could find, and they were both published in the 70s.

Bennett, A.F. and P. Licht. 1975. Evaporative water loss in scaleless snakes. Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology Part A: Physiology 52:213-215.

Abstract:
1. Rates of water loss were measured in two aberrant scaleless water snakes, Natrix sipedon, and in six normal animals.
2. Pulmocutaneous water loss of the scaleless animals was equal to or less than that of the controls at 20, 27, and 34°C.
3. The thermal dependence of pulmocutaneous water loss in all snakes was low (Q10 = 1·31–1·89).
4. The proportion of total water loss due to cutaneous evaporation (86·5%) in a scaleless animal at 20°C was similar to that previously reported for normal Natrix.
5. Thus, reptilian scales and their associated features (e.g. thick keratin layers, superficial dermal layer) cannot be considered adaptations for the curtailment of integumentary water loss.


These guys worked with Nerodia, which is a water-loving snake (notice the genus change). To be fair though, I don't think behavior (ie. soaking for an aquatic snake) allowed the scaleless snakes to compensate for evaporative loss, because of the following article:

Baeyens, D.A. and R.L. Rountree. 1983. A comparative study of evaporative water loss and epidermal permeability in an arboreal snake, Opheodrys aestivus, and a semi-aquatic snake, Nerodia rhombifera. Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology Part A: Physiology 76:301-304.

Abstract:
1. Evaporative water loss was compared in two snake species, the arboreal Opheodrys aestivus and the semi-aquatic Nerodia rhombifera.
2. Rates of water loss were significantly higher (P < 0.01) in N. rhombifera than in O. aestivus.
3. Shed epidermis of N. rhombifera was significantly (P < 0.001) more permeable than that of O. aestivus.
4. Following lipid extraction the permeability of shed epidermis increased in both species with the greater increase occurring in O. aestivus.
5. The efficacy of epidermal lipids in reducing cutaneous water loss may be an important adaptation to an arboreal environment in O. aestivus.


In short, if there was any difference between the water loss in scaleless and scaled snakes, we should see it in Nerodia, since their skin is more permeable than other species of snakes. Since corn snakes aren't aquatic, their skin probably has a higher fat content than water snakes, and therefore their ability to retain water should be fine even in relatively dry situations.

Granted, I have never owned a scaleless corn, so I'm not sure what kind of anecdotal evidence some of you may have. But the scientific literature seems pretty clear... water loss is similar between scaled and scaleless snakes. However, scales have a multitude of functions, not the least of which is protection from abrasions and depredation. In the wild this is probably a very significant danger to scaleless snakes, but in captivity these risks are obviously minimized or non-existent.