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Old 01-16-2010, 05:58 AM   #111
hhmoore
Quote:
Originally Posted by adder View Post
you are against snake's welfare and I am for it, and that's OK.
I've got to say that your persistent return to BS comments like this really detracts from your credibility - at least in my eyes. I'm not a fan of tongs for animal manipulation...though I think they are great for grabbing an occasional uneaten prey item or pulling/placing water bowls. I can even agree with comments about "milking" being stressful to the snakes...but proper use of a snake hook is not cruel, and implying that those who disagree with some of your statements are against animal welfare is assinine. If you had enough sense to quit before you , you might actually win a few people over.
 
Old 01-16-2010, 09:46 AM   #112
reticguy76
to say it is a "fact" that free handled animals lose their urge to bite is incorrect. the urge may decrease, but they never ever lose the urge. they are and will be wild instinctual animals, no matter how many generations of cbb they are. for example, a family dog still has instincts had times, but if you have the smell of dog food on your hand and you put your hand in front of their face, a high percentage of them will just lick your fingers and wag their tail happily. if you rub your hands on a rat, then stick it in a snakes face, their full wild instinct kicks in and they, a high percentage of the time, will bite.
so, again, to say they lose (usually) their urge to bite is incorrect, they are wild and the urge is always there
 
Old 01-16-2010, 11:24 AM   #113
Strike_Force_Reptiles
Quote:
Originally Posted by adder View Post
STF you wrote:
"free handling is not what I would consider a safe handling technique. "
This is common perception and one I share often, BUT from an animal welfare perspective "free handling" is better than sticks, tongs and other forcible restrictions.
We free handle all snakes, including world's deadlest at our snake shows - always - we don;t carry sticks of any sort! and at Snakebusters we put the snake's welfare first and this is what separates us from other snake handlers in Australia - period!
Also it is a commonly known FACT that a snake that has been free handled often and with care and respect, loses the urge to bite (usually), and this is seen in pet colubrids, pythons and dare I say it, .... venomoids, that are free handled daily.
But lets agree to disagree, you are against snake's welfare and I am for it, and that's OK.
While talking venomoids I can say I have managed to get a heap of venom from a pair of venomoids recently by breeding them and getting a heap of babies, all with venom.
Seven Eastern Brown Snake eggs hatched today, 100 per cent hatch rate and both parents have been venomless for years! Another lot are in the incubator as well!
Another snake handler here in Australia has this week, just been carted to hospital in a chopper after getting chomped by a Brown snake here in Australia (while stick handling in a show) and nearly died and that is not some risk I would give my staff, so we only use venomoid (defintion - no venom - ever!) browns.
ALL THE BEST
congrads on the browns! thanks for this post Ray, its the first normal post u made here and thats all we were looking for. here is the thing that we are all saying about venomoids.... what we are saying is just because its a "Venomoid" doesnt make it safe. people do make mistakes and if someone fails to do it proper they still thinks its a venomoid so its labeled as a venomoid but noone knows that it could regenerate because the person messed up. yes "venomoid" means no venom but u have to agree if someone does it wrong "venomoid" could turn back into fully loaded. i dont see anything wrong with using hooks because it is an extention of yourself but i dont agree with using tongs unless there is no other option because of the danger of injuries to the snake. i do understand why you use venomoids for shows as i use venomoids for shows as well but i do not agree at all with free handling. if you must do it do it out of sight of the public and if you do do it in public please let everyone know not to do it many times in your shows. my main concern is the people at my shows, my second concern is myself and then my snake. again thanks for that post, it expresses more of your views than just blasting at people. i will now respond to your posts again
 
Old 01-17-2010, 01:50 AM   #114
adder
Dear Strike_Force_Reptiles I use hooks and sticks as an aid for handling venomous snakes regularly and so can't be too opposed to them, BUT, don't kid yourself about snakes liking them.
They tolerate them at best....
Snakes can and do adapt to handling with hands and due to the thermal properties of the human hand (hot in cold and cold in hot, relative to the environment), snakes learn to like being handled, especially in places like where we live (Melbourne Australia) where the ambient temperature is often too cold (usually) and occasionally too hot for snake's comfort.
As a rule, all snakes prefer free handling to hooks, sticks and the like and hence from the animal wefare point of view, free handling always wins.
Ask almost any owner of a python or colubrid, who free handles their pet daily and ask them why they don't use a stick.
ALL THE BEST
ALL THE BEST
 
Old 01-17-2010, 02:49 AM   #115
Strike_Force_Reptiles
you show me a python or colubrid that used to be venomous and i will give a little more thought to my next answer
 
Old 01-17-2010, 04:22 AM   #116
adder
Dear
Strike_Force_Reptiles
I hate to say this, BUT, minus the venom, snakes generally don't vary as much as people think AND often it's the harmless ones that are more aggro!
PS - I've never had a free handled Death adder bite in over 40 years!
 
Old 01-17-2010, 04:53 AM   #117
Strike_Force_Reptiles
Quote:
minus the venom, snakes generally don't vary as much as people think AND often it's the harmless ones that are more aggro!
yes i agree but what we are getting at is the venomous side of it. we are not talking about aggressive we are talking about possible envenomation. that is the whole point. as u may have read in one of my earlier posts i poked at and played with baby copperheads when i was 5 and they did not bite me but the point i am making is that aggression isnt the problem its the possibility for envenomation. it was dumb of me to poke and pick up baby copperheads at 5 but i didnt know anything about snakes and so i was wondering what they were. at that age like ALL kids if i seen someone else do it i was going to do it. thats the point im getting at. if you free handle venomous, venomoid or hot and a child sees it what do you think they are going to go do? all kids want to act like their hero or act like an adult does. that is my point. im not worried about what you do infront of adults, adults should be capable of exercising common sense, children dont have that knowledge and there for cant separate right and wrong like we can. do you have children? how many times have you are seen someone you know say dont do that to a child and they go do it anyway? the best teacher is actions. you cant tell a child do what i say not as i do because 90% of the time they are going to try to be you and do just what you do. my 14 month old daughter says oh s**t when she falls now, why? because she heard me say it and when i tell her not to say it she just looks at me and says it again and when i spank her for it what does she do? cries and says it again. the point is if i didnt do it she wouldnt have done it so its my fault not hers so now i have to stop saying it to break her of it but if a child gets bit by a venomous snake because they saw you do it it might be too late to break them of it dont u think?
 
Old 01-17-2010, 05:01 AM   #118
Strike_Force_Reptiles
WOW after reading what i just posted i completely changed my mind about venomoids and using hots for shows. even if i use a hook kids can get the wrong idea. i wont be using them at shows anymore. hmmm guess even the wise can wise up. guess there really is no reason for venomoids
 
Old 03-04-2010, 05:01 PM   #119
jparker1167
Quote:
Originally Posted by adder View Post
Put simply anyone who attacks venomoids used in our context (educational shows daily) endorses ongoing cruelty to snakes through hooks, tongs, tailing and the need to "milk" snakes and force them to bite foreign objects, so that they can get "antivenom" when bitten.

The numbers go against you Gary E Orner Jr.
hooking and tailing are more cruel then cutting a snake open to remove parts of it so you can feel safer keeping it? why not keep something else? something that you don't have to alter for your benefit, like a plastic snake. I have never seen anyone come back with hooks, tongs, and milking as being cruel over venomoid surgery lol that's a first. Wonder how many snakes die while someone is using a hook or tongs or milking them. lol what a moron.
 
Old 03-13-2010, 01:23 PM   #120
timebider
I'm just now seeing this thread, so someone else may have already addressed this, but: I see you live in Alexandria, a couple cities over from me. If it is not already illegal to own a venomous snake there (which I actually don't think it is yet), it likely soon will be. Did you see the Washington Post article a while back about the guy whose escaped hots resulted in a major change to Arlington statutes? The article indicated that Alexandria was considering a ban on venomous snakes as well, and naturally there is strong community support. I haven't followed any pending local legislative debates, but did your extensive research extend to considering legal aspects of ownership, current and pending?

That's a real question, the answer to which I'm curious to read, but I also have a comment: your opposition to people using "venom 'grows back'" as an excuse not to perform this procedure is just nonsensical. I doubt "growing back" is the technically accurate terminology for what happens, but it has been shown repeatedly and conclusively that venomoid snakes can and do still produce venom. So. Take that for whatever it's worth to you; you seem to be very set in your "feelings."
 

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