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FaunaClassifieds Site HELP & Feedback Forum Anything of a nature concerning this website, moderators, admin, or anything having to do with how it is being run, should go here. Criticism is welcome, but abusive antagonism is not. THIS IS NOT THE FORUM FOR FEEDBACK CONCERNING BUYERS AND SELLERS! Such posts are ONLY allowed as replies to classified ads posted by the specific member involved in a specific issue with you.

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Old 06-04-2007, 02:35 PM   #181
Seamus Haley
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stardust
How many people here check every person in every store before you buy your food or clothing or whatever it is that you are buying? Do you walk in a store and find out if there is someone that you may not like there and if there is you just don't go to that store? It is ridiculous to think that so why is it different for a website?
How many businesses would hire an individual who was fired from their last job with cause?

Reason for leaving: Fired for theft
Reason for leaving: Fired for inappropriate conduct
Reason for leaving: Fired for making death threats to other employees

I don't think it's ridiculous at all to maintain some standard of behavior and hold some expectations about the past conduct and reputation of anyone who's being "hired" The reputation of the individuals will color the reputation of the business that hires them... or website that allows them to act as moderators. Positive or negative, as the individual case may be.

To draw a parallel to your analogy (how's that for fun with the english language?) there are people who have been banned from Fauna for misconduct that are currently allowed to access the paid moderator contributor status. As of right now, as far as I can tell and until someone confirms anything to the contrary, I am also under the impression that a moderator who was incrementally banned through the point system for misconduct would be allowed to pay a fine and return to the same status they were abusing. Anyone who's been banned from the site as a result of their own negative actions really should be rubberstamped as "Failed to meet the required standards" or "Non-rehireable"
 
Old 06-04-2007, 02:41 PM   #182
Stardust
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Haley
How many businesses would hire an individual who was fired from their last job with cause?

Reason for leaving: Fired for theft
Reason for leaving: Fired for inappropriate conduct
Reason for leaving: Fired for making death threats to other employees

I don't think it's ridiculous at all to maintain some standard of behavior and hold some expectations about the past conduct and reputation of anyone who's being "hired" The reputation of the individuals will color the reputation of the business that hires them... or website that allows them to act as moderators. Positive or negative, as the individual case may be.

To draw a parallel to your analogy (how's that for fun with the english language?) there are people who have been banned from Fauna for misconduct that are currently allowed to access the paid moderator contributor status. As of right now, as far as I can tell and until someone confirms anything to the contrary, I am also under the impression that a moderator who was incrementally banned through the point system for misconduct would be allowed to pay a fine and return to the same status they were abusing. Anyone who's been banned from the site as a result of their own negative actions really should be rubberstamped as "Failed to meet the required standards" or "Non-rehireable"
I knew as I was writing it that I didn't put that part out properly and still having a hard time with properly placing it in words so I will leave it at that.

I was under the impression that mini mods can get their abilities revoked if they abuse their powers, and I still am thinking on those lines as I seem to recall that being said at some point, I just don't know where and truthfully to lazy right now to look it up.
 
Old 06-04-2007, 02:49 PM   #183
WebSlave
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stardust
Rich, with all due respect, if you do this why not just close down the site completely?
That is what it would amount to as everyone here has someone they don't particularly care for, so in essence everyone would be getting rid of everyone, only at a slower pace then just shutting down the site.
Oh, absolutely! Which is why I have to take some advice with a jaundiced eye and wonder about the INTENT of such suggestions. Certainly some may not think it through to logical conclusions, but perhaps others do and would gleefully like to see that result come about.

Regardless of accusations to the contrary, I DO think about every suggestion made and do so as THOROUGHLY and COMPLETELY as possible. Most times I have already thought of it, so my quick response often seemingly appears that I am rejecting it out of hand without giving it any serious thought.

Why do you think I limited the power vested in the WS mods to ONLY higher paid memberships? What do you think the results would have been with little or no restriction on grasping that power? Have those people pushing for this just not thought it through, or are there ulterior motives for their pressure?

Why are some members trying to belittle those members who have paid the membership fees required to take on this authority and responsibility? What are the REAL motives behind that sort of harassment?

I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I can still slice bread when I want to.
 
Old 06-04-2007, 02:51 PM   #184
WebSlave
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griz
I hope Rich that one day you will see my input for what it was meant to be. Helpful. While I may lack tact now and then, my advice was never intended to upset you or get you riled up. If I did not care about Fauna I would have left long ago.

Griz
Bob, if that was offered as an apology, then I accept. My replies to you were simply a reflection of your own emotional content and tact.

Sorry.
 
Old 06-04-2007, 03:01 PM   #185
Griz
Rich, I certainly do not offer an apology for the content of my posts. I do apologize if the tact in which I wrote those posts caused you to respond in like manner and/or got your ire up. While I enjoy, I truly enjoy, getting into heated debates with specific people, you are not one of them. Probably more due to respect than anything else.

If nothing else Rich, ignore my previous posts but look long and hard at Seamus's last one. He stated it very well. Speaking only for myself, I am not asking you to get rid of anyone. Heck, even Ed Clark and Joepythons have their places in this world despite how I feel about their character. But, the simple thought of them helping you build this site does make me cringe a bit. It makes a lot of people cringe.

Anyways, I think there is more than enough salt that's been rubbed in your wounds today and I don't want to do that. I've said my peace and I hope you understand that my intent was only to respond to your request for input. Take it or leave I reckon but just know it was done to make your site better. A site that many of us enjoy.

Bob
 
Old 06-04-2007, 03:07 PM   #186
WebSlave
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Haley
How many businesses would hire an individual who was fired from their last job with cause?

Reason for leaving: Fired for theft
Reason for leaving: Fired for inappropriate conduct
Reason for leaving: Fired for making death threats to other employees

I don't think it's ridiculous at all to maintain some standard of behavior and hold some expectations about the past conduct and reputation of anyone who's being "hired" The reputation of the individuals will color the reputation of the business that hires them... or website that allows them to act as moderators. Positive or negative, as the individual case may be.

To draw a parallel to your analogy (how's that for fun with the english language?) there are people who have been banned from Fauna for misconduct that are currently allowed to access the paid moderator contributor status. As of right now, as far as I can tell and until someone confirms anything to the contrary, I am also under the impression that a moderator who was incrementally banned through the point system for misconduct would be allowed to pay a fine and return to the same status they were abusing. Anyone who's been banned from the site as a result of their own negative actions really should be rubberstamped as "Failed to meet the required standards" or "Non-rehireable"
So, Seamus, are you suggesting that everyone is incapable of change? Unable to change themselves for the better? Lacking the ability to see the errors of their ways and perhaps become a better person upon reflection of their previous character?

Yes, I know this is a large fault in my personality. I tend to forgive and forget even the most damaging behavior and actions of members on this board. Yes, there are members allowed back on here who have been abusive to the extreme to not only me, but other members here. And yes, like a stupe, I hope for the best from them the next time around. It's a flaw and I know it, but still, there it is. I just can't maintain a grudge for much longer than after a good night's sleep.

So are you saying that is wrong of me to have this hope? Wrong to think that maybe perhaps people can change for the better? Wrong for me to give them the chance to PROVE themselves?

If you were in my shoes, you would make all bans permanent with no possible parole? Once a bad guy is always a bad guy in your eyes? If so, perhaps you have a flaw yourself that needs to be dealt with.

Quite honestly, I have seen some members change just from the fact that they took on the responsibility of becoming a WS mod and suddenly got hit with the fact that it really put them in the spotlight. It made them MORE of a target as their actions came under closer scrutiny by everyone. In effect, they BECAME more responsible rather than remaining the same or becoming less. Not all, and certainly not all in the future, neither, but I am affording people the chance to make a change if they can, not only to this site, but themselves as well. The authority DEFINITELY carries a huge helping of responsibility. As such, they will be judged solely as being fit for the position in how they act in that position. Nothing more, nothing less.

That is just the way it is going to be. I am willing to take the chance on this working.
 
Old 06-04-2007, 03:12 PM   #187
Cat_72
Quote:
Originally Posted by WebSlave
No, it's not intentional Cheryl. But I believe I have always had this knack of getting directly to the heart of the matter by stripping away all the fluff in what someone says, and breaking it down to basic elements. Probably comes from my years being a computer troubleshooter where I had to deal with people trying to describe to me what was wrong, and I had to pick out only what was really relevant and focus on that.

Sorry...........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Webslave
Oh, absolutely! Which is why I have to take some advice with a jaundiced eye and wonder about the INTENT of such suggestions. Certainly some may not think it through to logical conclusions, but perhaps others do and would gleefully like to see that result come about.
Perhaps therein lies a BIG part of the problem. People are not "black and white" like computers, and by stripping away what YOU consider fluff, and only paying attention to what YOU think the person is saying, you often completely miss the point of what that person is saying.....and once you have that mistaken picture in your head, no matter how much that person tries to explain, it falls on deaf ears. Or you believe that means that person has nothing but malicious intent....when it is nothing of the sort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Webslave
Why are some members trying to belittle those members who have paid the membership fees required to take on this authority and responsibility? What are the REAL motives behind that sort of harassment?
Again....I have not seen ANYONE here who has taken issue with members in general who have paid for the moderator level. I specifically said in an earlier post that there are some who have paid recently with the best of intentions to help the site, and that's a good thing. What people have issues with is SCUM paying for the priviledge....and them and their money being welcomed with open arms.

I believe most of us thought more of this site and the integrity it was supposed to stand for. If you can't believe that is the true motivation behind the complaints, or you keep seeing the honest advice offered as just "fluff"...I don't know what else to say. Maybe I expected too much integrity, maybe I shouldn't care either.
 
Old 06-04-2007, 03:20 PM   #188
WebSlave
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat_72
Perhaps therein lies a BIG part of the problem. People are not "black and white" like computers, and by stripping away what YOU consider fluff, and only paying attention to what YOU think the person is saying, you often completely miss the point of what that person is saying.....and once you have that mistaken picture in your head, no matter how much that person tries to explain, it falls on deaf ears. Or you believe that means that person has nothing but malicious intent....when it is nothing of the sort.



Again....I have not seen ANYONE here who has taken issue with members in general who have paid for the moderator level. I specifically said in an earlier post that there are some who have paid recently with the best of intentions to help the site, and that's a good thing. What people have issues with is SCUM paying for the priviledge....and them and their money being welcomed with open arms.

I believe most of us thought more of this site and the integrity it was supposed to stand for. If you can't believe that is the true motivation behind the complaints, or you keep seeing the honest advice offered as just "fluff"...I don't know what else to say. Maybe I expected too much integrity, maybe I shouldn't care either.

Perhaps you are far too inclined to consider your own opinions as FACTS and discard the heart of the matter in favor of the fluff surrounding it. Take your own statements in your last post and reduct them to the key points you are expressing. Then tell me which of those points are FACTS, and which ones are YOUR OPINIONS.

(Yeah, I know Cheryl, going right for the red button again....)
 
Old 06-04-2007, 07:53 PM   #189
Seamus Haley
Quote:
Originally Posted by WebSlave
So, Seamus, are you suggesting that everyone is incapable of change? Unable to change themselves for the better? Lacking the ability to see the errors of their ways and perhaps become a better person upon reflection of their previous character?

Yes, I know this is a large fault in my personality. I tend to forgive and forget even the most damaging behavior and actions of members on this board. Yes, there are members allowed back on here who have been abusive to the extreme to not only me, but other members here. And yes, like a stupe, I hope for the best from them the next time around. It's a flaw and I know it, but still, there it is. I just can't maintain a grudge for much longer than after a good night's sleep.

So are you saying that is wrong of me to have this hope? Wrong to think that maybe perhaps people can change for the better? Wrong for me to give them the chance to PROVE themselves?

If you were in my shoes, you would make all bans permanent with no possible parole? Once a bad guy is always a bad guy in your eyes? If so, perhaps you have a flaw yourself that needs to be dealt with.

Quite honestly, I have seen some members change just from the fact that they took on the responsibility of becoming a WS mod and suddenly got hit with the fact that it really put them in the spotlight. It made them MORE of a target as their actions came under closer scrutiny by everyone. In effect, they BECAME more responsible rather than remaining the same or becoming less. Not all, and certainly not all in the future, neither, but I am affording people the chance to make a change if they can, not only to this site, but themselves as well. The authority DEFINITELY carries a huge helping of responsibility. As such, they will be judged solely as being fit for the position in how they act in that position. Nothing more, nothing less.

That is just the way it is going to be. I am willing to take the chance on this working.
How many changed and how many burned you more than once?

I'm not sure if you're not understanding why people are objecting to some of the individuals who are allowed a buy in, or if you don't care, or if this is just the latest depressed self destructive point of stubborn contention that you're going down in flames over... and as such, people have tried to explain it, hoping it was the first one.

Your mods have told you they simply do not want to share any specific demographic or association with hardcore criminal scumbags.

Your members have told you they don't like the direction or judgement displayed in letting liars and thieves represent the site.

You drew a distinction, and I think it's a valid one, between "bad people" and those who simply have some personal issues and explained fully, repeatedly, how the system would take care of anyone who abuses it directly. Mostly anyway, some answers have not been forthcoming about some details. Possibly because you haven't decided yet or, the more pessimistic are probably thinking it's because you have decided, and know the answers won't be well recieved.

If a moderator who bought in generates 300 points and is suspended, when they pay their fine, are they still a moderator?

If they are not a moderator, are they allowed to repay to replay?

At times in the past, the few times a supermod decided that they acted in error or overreacted or read something the wrong way- warning points that they issued which in hindsight should not have been were retracted. Haven't seen that happen lately, even in the few cases of flagrant and wanton abuse which happened. Sure, the mod responsible got hit with points of their own, but it doesn't help the person who was inappropriately hit; does it? Yeah, yeah- the ban limit is real high but hey... drops in a bucket eventually add up.

You are aware of a certain subsection of the member base who are, ultimately, detractors not of an idea or a proposition or a change in the rules- but of the site, of your efforts. Every so often you seem hell bent on destruction and you find a situation and you inflame it... and every time that happens, the fallout is a little worse, the people willing to overlook it or excuse it are a few less and a few more people have been shoved aside or told that they're not wanted and their contributions and efforts aren't valued. And every time, it gives ammo to the very few people who genuinely do want to see the site go down and fail (rather than an idea be repealed or tweaked).

It's hard to look at the way you're willing to let some of these people represent your site, your efforts, all the positive results of the communal efforts. It's tough to come to any conclusion other than the inevitable "He seems to be willing to let anyone do anything if they pay up, no matter who they are or what they have done." and it gets tougher to think any differently when you set up systems which would let you keep taking that cash when those same people go and actively damage the thing you brought forth.

I'm probably going to continue to rehash what I feel is important- that people who have *proven* themselves incapable of rational and unbiased conduct, who have proven time and time again that they are criminals and scumbags should not be allowed the privilege of representing your interests. The banned list seems like a sort of final line, a group of people who have been so vile in their behavior that they had to be removed from the site. There are a lot of people who are distasteful that never managed to force that extreme solution- it's the worst of the worst when it comes to conduct.

If there's an individual or three... where miscommunication or personal conflict weighed more heavily on their ban and, retrospectively they, as an exception, are people you feel have either redeemed themselves or the inherent cause of the banning has passed or was a fluke- make an exception for them. I'm not sure if pardoning the many for the sake of the few makes much sense though. You, Rich, better than anyone else will have a mental catalogue of the behaviors that led to bannings and I am sure you can come up with some examples of redeemed individuals, or those worthy of honest forgiveness because they had honest regrets about whatever situation led to that conclusion... but are they the exception, or are they the rule?

I keep saying it 'cause... I think it's important. I care, turly and genuinely about the outcome of all this, as much as I am a pessimistic little sod who tends to examine everything and focus on the potential bad... I only get this involved and this active when I can't put it down because it matters. Eventually, you'll get frustrated with me and give me my very own "Shut up or there will be consequences" message, and I'll go to my corner and keep mumbling to myself about that big important truth I think I see. Hopefully before it hits that point though, I can manage to convey the reasons I am thinking the way I am and the value of my opinion. My standard course of just attacking the obvious flaws and being critical hasn't gotten me too far in the past; this time I believe I have come up with a few potential solutions (one rejected and abandoned 'cause the reason for rejection was solid. One I am not giving up on quite yet) trying the constructive approach. People have raved about how much better it is than my normal list of why something is wrong or bad or stupid. We'll see if they're right. Maybe my points will prove worth listening to and my suggestion worth a try. Maybe I'll be told to shut up. Coin toss at this point.
 
Old 06-04-2007, 10:08 PM   #190
WebSlave
The WS mods system is a done deal. It will remain a done deal until I decide otherwise, which may or may not happen. I have my opinions and you have yours. Since it's my name on the door, I get to do this the way I believe is best.

If you don't like this fact, then deal with it in any way you deem fit that does NOT include bugging me about your same old issues.

Sorry, but I am done repeating myself to those who seem to believe just rephrasing the same old questions might get a different answer.
 

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