Dav Kaufman - Beware

On 2/24/2012 I bought a leopard pied male from Dav. I sent him $1545 for this snake. I had a pied male breeder but really wanted the leopard gene. I got the snake and it was healthy. It kinda looked leopard so I assumed it was and was happy. Last year as my clutches were hatching I produced zero leopards. I bred to a spider trying to make leopard spiders so it would have been obvious. I called Dav and told him. He informed me that he had got him in a trade and to let him contact the person he got it from. He then said that they assured him that it was a leopard. He didn't know what to do so we agreed to give it one more season and see if it produced. Here is how the conversation has gone

8/28 I emailed him telling him about the sitsuations.

8/31 8:37 pm I text him
Hey Dav, did you get my email?

8:40 pm he texted
I don't think so. What was it regarding?

8:41 I texted
The leopard pied I got from you. I waited another season and no leopards

9:23 he texted
Yes I did get that. I'm catching up on everything I don't know what to do about it. I'll try to give a call to the guys why I got the snake from

9:42 I texted
Ok cool. I know it sucks from every stand point. Hopefully they are stand up guys. The one I just bought back was only $500 but has me thinking now about what I sell and who's word I take

9:44 he texted
It does suck. & I was only the middle man in the sale. Do you remember how much you bought the snake for?

9:45 I texted
$1545. I know, that's why now I won't deal on hets or anything questionable unless I produced it.

9:46 he texted
That is exactly why I do the same. Let me see what I can do for you.

9:48 I texted
Thanks man I appreciate it. I am sure they don't want to refund it, I am not expecting anything for lost clutches, but if they can kick down something close to the value that would be good

9:49 he texted
Of course. Being that I was involved in the sale I will do whatever I can to make you happy.

9:49 I texted
Thanks

9/2 7:23am I texted
Not sure if they have come up with anything but what do you think of this....take the $1545 off one of your killer clown girls so I'd owe you $305. I will take the pied to the show next weekend and call you as I am selling it so your aware it's not going for $100 to screw you. Whatever it sells for is yours, and I pay shipping for the killer? This way your getting money, not paying shipping back on a pied, and they can make it right to you.

9/3 7:28 pm I texted
So I am assuming that since its been a week since I emailed you and you haven't responded to my idea that they still say it is what they say and nothing is going to be done?

9/6 11:16am I texted
Hey Dav if you can let me know who you bought it from. A few people I have shared the whole story with have convinced me to post it all on fauna, bush league and a couple other places so I think it's only fair that you don't get all the heat. Thanks

9/6 11:57am he texted
First I'm very sorry this happened. Second, even before the time of sale, I made it very clear that I was only the broker, the middleman who was only selling a snake for a friend. I've told you that I will go back to that friend who is no longer breeding and see what I can do and I am doing that. I have worked very hard to produce quality animals and maintain a very positive reputation for the past 20 years so if you choose to post this all over the Internet that is your prerogative but I will defend myself and my reputation, and ask others to do so on my behalf as well. Now I have considered your idea of giving you a $2000 snake now to make up for this with you trying to sell it and what not. I don't think that's fair. I did not produce the snake you purchased and relayed only information that I had from the breeder and made very sure that you understood that I was not the one who produced that snake before the sale occurred. I'm only a person caught in the middle of what unfortunately turned into a bad sitsuation for you and I understand that you feel slighted. I took only 10% to act as a broker for selling that snake. Now I am open to other ideas to rectify this but again I feel as I did not misrepresent my role in this and make sure that you understood that before the sale occurred

12:02 pm I texted
You never told me anything about someone else until last year when it didn't produce. Second it's here because you won't respond. What just really pissed someone off was you said you were the "middleman" you were the seller regardless. The offer I made you was more than fair. You would get around $650 cash and I would pay for shipping.

12:06 pm I texted
I hate having disputes and making things public, but put yourself in my shoes. And for the record, you told me that you got it trade last year

12:07 pm I texted
I am not asking you to give me anything more than what you took from me.

12:14 pm he texted
I'm out of town for the weekend right now so before we misinterpret the tone of texts, give me a call this week and we'll figure it out.

12:18 pm I texted
Yeah I'd like that because accidents happen and I really don't want to make an issue of this, but it was a good chunk of change. I hope you have a good holiday and we sort this out

12:42 pm he texted
We will. I'm not looking to leave a bad taste in anyone's mouth. You have a good one too.

9/9 5:15pm I texted
Sorry been busy getting ready for this weekends show and talking to other friends of Tom Baker who if you haven't heard, he died two days ago in a motorcycle accident. I will call you tomorrow afternoon while I drive up to ultrasound some snakes.

9/10 5:37 pm I texted
Het Dav, so what ae you thinking we do?

That was over 4 days ago and nothing from him. After talking to enough people about it that it is my responsibility to bring it to light. I have been patient, non-threatening, and trying to work something out before going public but it's been almost 2 weeks. The snake I was willing to deal on was overpriced to begin with since I had a 500+ gram male killer clown on my tale for $1500, but I didn't try and talk him down on his price. I guess what it comes down to is despite him telling me last year he got it in trade and now this year he was a broker.....
1) I only had contact with him
2) I paid him
3) he shipped me the snake.........he is the seller!

I still don't even know who this phantom breeder is and honestly don't care. In the sitsuation I just had, I bought a snake from a vendor as a orange dream pin. I decided I didn't want another project so I sold it. A month later the buyer contacted me and told me that a couple people told him it was a desert enchi pin. When all was said and done, I drove an hour to him and gve him his money back and gave him a 700+ gram female fire yellow belly for the problem. I returned the snake to who I bought it from and waiting to get reimbursed since he doesn't have the money. That's between me and him, not my customer. So the way Dav has it is that we all can just be "middlemen/brokers" and have no responsibility?

Sorry for your trouble.
I do find it somewhat odd that you started a thread in the "Hell" section regarding people threatening to take things to a public forum, yet in your string of posts above you are basically doing what you criticized the person in your other thread of doing.
Don't get me wrong, I dont believe you deserve to be taken advantage of or not compensated, but it is ironic that you chose to throw that in there when it obviously upset you when someone did it to you.

No Jackie if you go read that one in hell it was that in the very first message was talk about ruining reputations. This went on for awhile and you can see where I said I wanted to work it out and didn't want to go public. that post was about wether it was acceptable to threaten to ruin reputation before even talking to the person to see what they would do.

I am sorry this happened. But if Mr Kaufman sold you a product promising you it was one thing, then it turned out to not be, it is up to him to refund the money.

The person that took the money is the person that need to refund the money. If the 3rd party took the money then you need to go to them.


As I told you in the other thread. The seller of the item has to take responsibility for the item.

Originally Posted by CwnAnnwn

The seller of the item has to take responsibility for the item.

Exactly. If a person sells a snake as an 'x' and takes money for it, he warrants it is an 'x'. Whether he is a producer, broker, it does not matter, what is important is that he is the seller to that buyer.

He must make things right with the buyer directly and then if he wishes he can go against the person who gave or sold the 'not x' to him, but the seller cannot change positions and tell the buyer to deal with the seller's supplier.

From the alleged texts from Dav Kaufman:"I have worked very hard to produce quality animals and maintain a very positive reputation for the past 20 years so if you choose to post this all over the Internet that is your prerogative but I will defend myself and my reputation"

Trying to slither away by saying you were only a broker is not a good defense, if that is what happened.

The ONLY defense to all this is bad luck, that the critter is what it is supposed to be but never proved out.

Originally Posted by Lucille

Exactly. If a person sells a snake as an 'x' and takes money for it, he warrants it is an 'x'. Whether he is a producer, broker, it does not matter, what is important is that he is the seller to that buyer.

He must make things right with the buyer directly and then if he wishes he can go against the person who gave or sold the 'not x' to him, but the seller cannot change positions and tell the buyer to deal with the seller's supplier.

From the alleged texts from Dav Kaufman:"I have worked very hard to produce quality animals and maintain a very positive reputation for the past 20 years so if you choose to post this all over the Internet that is your prerogative but I will defend myself and my reputation"

Trying to slither away by saying you were only a broker is not a good defense, if that is what happened.

The ONLY defense to all this is bad luck, that the critter is what it is supposed to be but never proved out.

With Lucille and Dan as well.
Mr. Kaufman needs to make things right, with you, if he told you the snake is a Leopard but, after a couple of breedings, the snake didn't prove out to be what it was sold to you as.
Mr. Kaufman, if he so chooses, can go to the person, who traded the snake to him, to seek whatever loss he had to take (due to making things right with you).

....

IMO, Dav is completely in the wrong here and sometimes you need to bite the bullet and do the right thing if you wish to maintain a flawless reputation. I can speak on this because I actually found myself in a similar situation a few years ago. I sold someone a "white" snake that I believed to also have pastel in it. The buyer got multiple clutches that first season and did not produce a single pastel. So without question, I manned up... told them to keep/sell the original snake and also gave them another pastel "white" snake to replace the one that did not prove. Thats how I believe these sort of situations should be handled. I let them keep/sell the original one to make up for there lost clutches that they were banking on to have pastel in them. I think the deal that the OP offered to make up for it was MORE THAN FAIR on his behalf. Sad to see that people will throw their 20 year rep out the window over $1000...

*I wrote "white" snake instead of the exact morph to maintain anonymity of the project*

Typically the "middle man" gains something from the deal, so the "middle man" should have to make it right. If you go buy a used car from the car lot and it blows up, they're not going to say "let me find the previous owner and see what I can work out". In my opinion it is up to Dav to good on the deal. I think Randy was more than gracious to give it another year, a lot of time and money wasted! Sorry Randy.

Up to Dav to make good on the deal.

I see more posts like this in the future,with so many animals being sold with wrongly stated genetics!