One More Reason to Test for Adenovirus

I agree with Cat_72, we need to discuss this as a community and try and understand this virus as best we can. And I also believe that it means hearing all opinions. It also means being able to have different views and being able to discuss them in a productive manner.

Adenovirus has been hushed for too long. If I had even heard of it when I started breeding, I would have tested. I think that the accuracy of the two different tests and whether or not the virus is continually shed is an area that should be explored further. I do know that Lou Ann Miller at the Univ of IL lab had said she was going to talk to Dr. Jacobson about them both doing their respective tests on the same sample and comparing the results. That would be a great first step.

I think we should be able to talk about adenovirus and not feel like our existence as a breeder is threatened. I was told by someone I really respected that If I went public with finding adeno in my colony that it would ruin me. I decided in the end, I needed to do what I felt was right and inform the bearded dragon community so we could try to get a handle on this virus. Yes, I do have an agenda. It is really pretty simple too. The dragon community needs to talk about adenovirus openly, get educated as much as possible, and discuss it to learn as much as we can before we infect the entire U.S. bearded dragon population with it because we didn't know any better.

No, the tests are not perfect, but it is something and breeders need to test. I have not heard of there being false positives before. I asked Lou Ann about this, as I had some tough decisions to make that were riding on these tests. She told me that if they see the virus, the dragon is positive. Now, if there is a dragon that tests positive and then subsequently tests negative, it makes me question whether or not dragons are continually shedding viral cells. That is something that is key to detecting a positive animal. I did ask Dr. Wentz regarding the accuracy of the EM test he developed and he said that the carriers tested positive each time and the negatives tested clear. He also said that a male that died at 6 years of age was still shedding cells. This not definitive answers for anything, but it is important information which should be considered thoughtfully. I also know that Clyde was shedding very rare (in numbers) adeno cells at two years of age. To me, this is another piece of information that is useful.

I think it is irresponsible to say because there are no definitive answers, we should not do anything. I do not agree with the people who are saying that certain breeders (I do not know if I am included in this) are using scare tactics to try and get people to not breed anymore. I even had someone tell me that a breeder at a show said that our agenda was to "get others to stop breeding so we could charge more for our dragons." This is not and has never been a money issue for me. That is one of the most ridiculous statements I have heard. It is about preserving the U.S. dragon population and doing what is right by them.

I wish more breeders that were dealing with it would come forward. I respect their right to keep it private and handle it how they feel is best for them, but I do think it would help to understand this more. Every breeder that goes through this probably has a little bit different experience and I think that would go a long way in educating us as a community.

I do think that knowing where a large portion of the infected animals came from is important. At this point, it is water under the bridge and would at least help us to understand how come it is in as many colonies as it is. I hope together, we can have an open discussion and move closer to having more breeding colonies that do not have adenovirus and produce healthy bearded dragons.

As far as the fecal testing goes, I was told there are no false positives, only false negatives. This could be due to several reasons. I'm going to give my understanding of the way the virus and testing works, and I'm quite sure if my understanding is incorrect, somone will be there to correct me.

The fecal tests work by finding cells of the virus that are shed through fecal material. When a dragon first gets the virus, it will have a "surge" of shed cells, so to speak. The longer the dragon has had the virus, the less cells they will shed. If you're collecting from an animal that may have had the virus for a while, and the fecals aren't collected at the appropriate time, or are mishandled in any way, they will likely show a false negative.

I was told by Lou Ann Miller and Denise Latanzi (after all her research) that the absolute best time to collect fecal samples is within the first two-three poops after brumation, or any time the dragon's immune system might not be as strong (such as parasites). You want to collect those samples after they've had time to "store up" the viral cells, so that they're easier to detect.

These two things, in themselves, could easily explain any testing positive the first time, then testing negative thereafter. The subsequent negative tests would suggest, at least to me, that the animal wasn't SHEDDING the cells at that time, NOT that they don't have the virus.

In my case, only one of my dragons had been brumating (Lizzie--the negative one), and two of the poops were the dragons' first poops in a week (Aphrodite and Eros). My understanding is that those were the best samples to send. Even knowing that the rest of the dragons were on regular routine, pooping daily (or several times daily, as the case may be) the fecal still picked up those viral cells.

As for finger pointing, I will do that right now...concerning my animals that currently test negative. Lizzie came from Tracey's Beardies here in Arizona. Eros originally came from Dragon's Den. What I will not do, however, is state where my positive animals originated, as there are many ways they could have come into contact with the virus, and it is unfair to assume they came from the original breeder with the virus.

And as for thinking that someone has an agenda, you're darn right I have one...to try to keep other people from having to go through what my dragons and I have. Whether anyone cares to recognize it or not, those breeders who sold infected animals have affected thousands of animals, and their owners...and all their offspring, and anyone who bought that offspring, and anyone who has come into contact with those positive animals or their offspring. Anyone see a pattern here?

Cheri, what bothers me most is that people are saying this is no big deal...that this virus isn't important. Let that person hatch out babies that, for all intents and purposes, should be healthy, and watch as the babies wither away to nothing until they finally die. Or how about the ones who do survive, that at the age of 2 months, they are still 4" long...and watch them struggle daily just to live. Better yet, let that person sit on the phone contacting every person they have ever sold to, or anyone that has ever come into contact with their animals, and listen to the reaction, all the while knowing that their entire colony could also have been infected...just because of your own animals. Yes, this virus has an effect. Only someone who doesn't care about these precious animals can say it doesn't.

We stated :

To the bearded dragon community, we believe this is where we all need to step up to the plate. Those who have had positive results through EM testing - please consider additional PCR testing with Dr. Jacobson - You have the fecal samples that are needed to further any research and possibly identify or discount additional strains of the adenovirus in the North American bearded dragon population. Identification is paramount - it is the first of many steps needed.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ad.php?t=89703
Note to interested parties - Private correspondence was initiated by Cheri in response to our last post.

Our opinion has not changed from the original posts we have made. There are too many unanswered questions, lop-sided facts (that are presented to only support certain points of view) and hearsay to make any informed decisions at all. Oh, and don’t forget the partial mis-quotes and snide comments.

Lets start by addressing Cheri’s latest mis-quote :

Originally Posted by Dachiu

I have a problem with people who tend to present only the information that supports their opinions or beliefs. Surely, we can make the time to address this publicly…

Taking any post in context when offering a quote would be an excellent starting point for intelligent public conversation.

Back to your question - Sorry, but we would not post a name publicly any faster than you would offer the names of people with positive confidential test results. Suffice to say, Pete did not only acquire his initial stock from overseas - but also purchased dragons from various sources within the USA.

Originally Posted by CheriS

It showed up in the US heavily in bearded dragons that I know of, that were imported from Germany in 1997-2000 to Florida, in the german giants and redflame lines, later the orange glow line and those were all crossed together.

The adenovirus was identified and documented in vitticeps in 1996 by Dr. Jacobson - then found “heavily” in the captive population shortly thereafter? Finding that odd we asked a few pointed questions of the appropriate people and discovered that the trail of information leads back to the early 90’s, if not late 80’s… Before Pete.

Originally Posted by CheriS

…in fact the first generations of RedFlames were some of the most heartiest and largest dragons ever produced as are many of the GG lines.

Really? Did you observe this by first-hand experience Cheri? Did you purchase a 1st generation Red Flame from Pete?
We did… several actually, and “in fact” from our experience the above statement could not be further from the truth.

Everything presented publicly so far has been opinions and nothing more. Ok, one opinion was of a valued member of the reptile research community was given - BUT those opinions are being presented to the community by people other than themselves. Cheri, did you edit, delete parts or choose not to mention additional information provided in consecutive correspondences with Dr. Jacobson?

I feel like I’m watching a game of “Pong”. The information just bounces from one side to another. Research has NOT been done on the adenovirus in bearded dragons. The best thing we can do is to test and re-test and try to gather as much information as possible. That is what we have told others to do and that is exactly what we are doing. Do not form an opinion on what others say (including us) but rather do your own research and your own testing.

As for the hush aspect of this whole situation - Cheri, YOU are the one that doesn’t want the broad spectrum of information available. The only facts that are acceptable are the ones that support your point of view - and the minute something goes awry from your path, you want to start pointing a finger. The minute people start asking intelligent questions - up pops a sob story.

Originally Posted by CheriS

The whole thing is there are some very angry breeders now that people are testing and questioning.... NOW WHY WOULD THEY BE?

Who is angry? Certainly not us. In fact, we are happy that more people are testing their animals. Quite frankly, the more testing that is done… the more things seem to differ from what we have been told is so. The more people who present information, the better.

Shall we begin a list of misinformation that has been presented? Or perhaps a few questions that question/contradict this misinformation? Or maybe it would be better to just move on and address some of the current issues and hypothesis.



Fact - The person who Cheri points her finger at is NOT the person responsible for introducing adenovirus to the USA.

Fact - Adenovirus is NOT the reason said person is no longer actively breeding dragons… just a sad assumption to support a theory.

Fact - Josh worked for SDR and was hands-on with their Trans project. Cheri, you really should “check it further” with a simple phone call to Bob before making unfounded assumptions. (Considering the fact that Paul lived in New Jersey - He must have very long arms.)

Fact - I’m confused. Exactly where in any of Paul’s posted comments on the health of the Translucent dragons was adenovirus mentioned?

Fact - There are many breeders listed on the Bearded Dragon Breeders Network that have recently tested positive for adenovirus. Chances are that their animals were positive previous to testing and yet, oddly enough, are highly recommended for the health of their animals.

Fact - There are several reports of no mortality rates in clutches of adenovirus positive hatchlings. How can this be based on the information provided? What changed?

Fact - The viral outbreaks in animals that died in most cases, had other issues in addition to adenovirus. Shhh… that’s a secret.

Fact - There have been a couple reports of adenovirus positive babies - produced by adults who tested negative.

Wendy stated :

I did ask Dr. Wentz regarding the accuracy of the EM test he developed and he said that the carriers tested positive each time and the negatives tested clear.

Fact - We have animals in our possession that previously tested positive for adenovirus - Curious thing is - so did a sibling 2-3 months ago who has since then returned multiple negative results. Once positive, always positive? Obviously not in this case.

Glaring Fact - The one thing with any discernable consistent pattern is the inconsistency of the information provided by certain parties.

Vicki-

when I stated testing results being positive or negative regarding Dr. Wentz, I was referring only to the tests he did on his animals. I was not making assumptions about all dragons being tested. I was trying to finish my post before I had to go somewhere and I guess I did not make it clear enough that I was referring to only the tests he had done. That is why I said I thought it was important information, but did not provide definitive answers for testing results.

I also agree that it is important to point out that there are clutches that test positive, but do not have any die offs. I hope it is known why at some point. It could be that there is more than one strain or it could be that it effects the immune system of various dragons differently. It could also be what you are suggesting regarding there being other health issues present with the dragons. We just do not know. I have only spoke of what was the case with my dragons. That is why it is important for others to speak of their experiences. The more information the better.

Originally Posted by Neverland Dragons

That is why it is important for others to speak of their experiences. The more information the better.

That was pretty much the whole point of my somewhat ranting 4 am post. I just want to see folks working together to solve these riddles, not fighting amongst each other. Thanks, Wendy.

I have found at all times that Vicki has been more then willing to answer questions and spend time with me on the phone addressing whatever concerns or questions that I have. She is a most valueable source of information and frankly given the help she provides to the dragon community I can't imagine that she and her husband will provide anything but the ABSOLUTE TRUTH as they know it..

We were referring to the information Dan provided in his paper also. He states that the testing he did returned 100% correct results, 100% of the time. That may somehow be true for Dan’s results - but something tells me this is wrong, for I know of no test available that claims to return 100% accurate results.

I agree, and always have agreed, with what you state in your second paragraph. Sadly, there is too much fear involved for many of those people to come forward and state anything. The way this whole adenovirus situation is being presented is not conductive to the end results we all desire. People are afraid to ask questions and others are also afraid to answer many of the questions that are asked. Why? Because simply put - the implications of having the spotlight turned on them scares the crap out of them. God forbid if a breeder were to come out publicly and say - “I have had no mortality at all, from a clutch of positive babies that all appear healthy and are thriving. What’s up with that?” It will never happen due to fear of if you don’t follow the crowd, you must be against the crowd.

This is such nonsense. People fear the dark - and I believe that the information that is presented by certain people is shadowy at best. We need to ask questions, receive honest replies and we need to not be targets of derogatory comments from a selective few for asking our questions.

It only seem logical that the results all desire is to find a cure for this virus. It is obvious that containment is no longer possible given the time frame that has elasped and the number of infected dragons that are out there.

It boils down to importance and money with all research. There are humans that are dying everyday from all kinds of issues that require study. I would not think that a Dragon virus ranks that high up on the research list or the grant money. Until someone wants to spend 20k and disect the DNA strands of healthy and infected dragons this will go on and on. Nature will weed out the sick and they will die. If all dragons become infected they will all die and the spieces will become extinct. That is the way nature handles such things with animals and humans. This is not the end of the world as we know it. There are far more important issues. Just wait until a member of your family is facing a mortal illness. Dragons will not be on the top of your mind then. Just try to keep this all in perspective with life. Richard

In searching for information that would help us to understand the adenovirus in general and how it can effect its hosts I came across this book. This is not reptile related, but a good read on viruses in general. Also interesting to note that the lecture on enteric Adenoviruses are listed under “Viruses We Eat”.
http://www.amazon.com/Pathogenic-Vir...e=UTF8&s=books


In this article the pathogenesis of various ingested pathogens is discussed.
Table 3.2 - Factors increasing the Risk or Severity of Food borne Illness is on page 11.
http://www.mass.gov/Eeohhs2/docs/dph...ual/chap_3.pdf

Hi,
This is my first post here. I have been following this discussion. I have two sub adult beardies that I tested and both were positive from two different breeders. The reason I am posting is the reaction from one breeder. I asked him to test his breeders when my girl wasn’t thriving. He told me to test so I did and then he demanded to see the results. Well, both were positive. This breeder should have tested when I suspected it. He finally tested a few months later. I feel had he listened and read all the posts he should have tested and it could have saved someone a lot of heart ache. If breeders sell dragons for money, they need to held accountable just like businesses. It’s one thing to sell an adeno positive dragon and not know it but if a buyer says hey my baby is positive than the breeder has the responsibility of testing or the liability falls on them. The attitude from this breeder was really disgusting to me. Had he tested and came to me, I would have tested and that be the end of it. I would have understood.

I think a website or forum that has the symptoms that people can go to that suspect adeno would be a great asset to the beardie communities. I know I would volunteer my experiences and we could all gain knowledge. I think the symptoms are far more widespread than what is published since there is no money in research.

I agree with ravin7678, I think the friends of this breeder is biased. I kept quiet about my problems with Magick’s breeder for the reasons your post on the website got. So sad. My heart went out to you.

I have two wonderful beardies and when they start suffering I will do the right thing by them. I have also decided that I cannot bring another dragon into my home after these two go because I do not know if our whole house is contaminated. This is just so sad for us.

I can’t thank Wendy and all the other breeders for coming forward with this information enough.