One More Reason to Test for Adenovirus

My babies have been ill and I do the very best I can. So when they start to do poorly I get very flustered.

CheriS, I am sorry if I took your post wrong. It is late and I should not have responded when I did.

I am sorry Tere for the news. It can be heart breaking. I also recieved my testing back Friday. I was had just a few I was hoping to breed and because of Wendy I decided that I would test them. Then I found out about Magicks test results and the urgency hit me more. Magick (pscaulkins) beardie was a clutchmate of mine.. All 5 of my beardies that came from 4 different breeders tested postivie.
My dragons though. will remain here. Where they will live out their happy lives because that is more important to me.. and I also agree that if we all worked together we could probably help them so much more.

Originally Posted by Dachiu

God forbid if a breeder were to come out publicly and say - “I have had no mortality at all, from a clutch of positive babies that all appear healthy and are thriving. What’s up with that?” It will never happen due to fear of if you don’t follow the crowd, you must be against the crowd.

That almost sounded like a dare...

We have had no mortality at all from two clutches of positive babies that all appear healthy and are thriving except for one . That one became and has stayed very sick, after leaving us.

We also obtained the (recently tested positive) parent that produced them, as a hatchling. She also has never been sick, and is still thriving.

It sounds terrible, but I wish ours would have been like some others, and died soon after hatching. We would have known sooner, and wouldn't have to deal with the knowledge that we sold what we thought were healthy animals to people and in some cases, apparently, infected their collections.

I tend to not follow crowds.

Then again, I didn't even think there was one.

Originally Posted by Motor City Dragons

That almost sounded like a dare...

We have had no mortality at all from two clutches of positive babies that all appear healthy and are thriving except for one . That one became and has stayed very sick, after leaving us.

We also obtained the (recently tested positive) parent that produced them, as a hatchling. She also has never been sick, and is still thriving.

It sounds terrible, but I wish ours would have been like some others, and died soon after hatching. We would have known sooner, and wouldn't have to deal with the knowledge that we sold what we thought were healthy animals to people and in some cases, apparently, infected their collections.

I tend to not follow crowds.

Then again, I didn't even think there was one.

Great post, and you so clearly stated what is obviously the big issue. Even an apparently healthy and thriving young Beardie, if positive for Adenovirus, can infect other Beardies. An unsuspecting buyer can do everything right, quaranteen, do fecal exams for parasites, use the appropriate substrates and feeding, and still infect every Beardie they own if they aren't aware of the hazards.
A baby that appears healthy today may not be healthy in a month or two, but before they even show symptoms, they can pass this disease on.
An adult Dragon that is positive that breeds can spread Adeno to the offspring, which are then sold into other homes, infecting other colonies.

I also tend not to follow crowds. I make decisions independently, and act based on the facts as I learn them. All the bolony about where Adeno came from, who created what morphs, and all the rest of the stuff that really isn't important to me. What matters is that people who don't know, the person buying their first dragon, people who simply love these creatures without knowing much about the industry, are not out there buying infected animals. It makes us all look bad when an individual buys a reptile from someone that they believe is a "reputable" breeder, then racks up huge vet bills finding out that their dragon is infected with a disease that the breeder should have known about prior to breeding.

I'm honestly a bit frustrated with what I've seen. Anyone who wants information about this disease can simply search out their own answers. I know that because I did it. I was sick and tired of all the contradictory information I saw here.
For anyone who wants to do their own research, this is what I did, it'll give you a place to start.
Most Veterinary schools are listed online. Do a google search for Veterinary schools in your state. When you find them, go to the schools website, and see if they have a research department, if they do, they normally have contact information for quite a few of the people in that department, I simply copied them down, and emailed them all (I sent about 200, yes, 200 emails to different schools).
Some people will email you back the information they have, some people, if they are anything like the people I spoke with, will actually express an interest in your particular situation and will help you to find additional information.
Some of the people who sent on information actually invited me to call them if I had more questions, and I did, I talked to people all over the state.
If you experience is anything like mine, and I know that Tere had very similar experiences, then you are going to hear the same names over and over, Dr. Wentz (My spelling may be off here), and Dr. Jacobson.
If your experience is anything like mine, you'll also become an advocate for testing, and a strong believer that whatever the issues between Cheri and others in the community, that she's right about testing, and that she's absolutely right to keep advising people to get their animals tested, particularly breeders.

Josh-

I am guessing you are implying that there has to be corona with adeno for it to be a problem. Out of the 43 baby bins that were tested one bin had moderate corona particles and two had occasional corona particles seen. Keep in mind that there were 3 or 4 samples mixed in for each test, as all of the costs for testing came out of my pocket and I still had to have money for a family of 6 to live on.

Again, I am guessing that you are implying that there has to be another virus for this to be deadly and it is not the adenovirus that is killing dragons. It is also possible that the dragon's immune system is compromised due to adenovirus and it allows for other health issues. The combination can kill dragons. BUT, it is also possible that if a dragon did not have adenovirus, their immune systems could handle other health issues that may or may not come up with adenovirus. It is my understanding that corona virus is something that usually effects them for a short period and then clears up. If anyone has more info on corona virus please share with us.

On a different note, I find it very disturbing the lengths you went through to develop your translucent line. Any line that had to come about resulting with babies suffering from crooked spines and kinked tails, in my opinion, was not meant to be in the first place. Maybe I am just naive and this is common practice. This is just my opinion.

Edit: I attached test result files from my baby bins at the bottom of this post.

Josh

Some people consider dragons with mbd, vision problems, and odd goofy-like stance sickly. not healthy and the norm. Then offspring with crooked backs and tails also sickly. I am so sorry you felt you "needed" to do this and continue inbreeding them to make more the same way including many that did not see adulthood. I saw the dragons in Daytona that were produce in 2003, I and anyone I know that saw them, did not describe them as anything but sickly. I think any archive online will verify that, including your own and Paul's statements I linked to already, also here is a photo of one.

Thank you for bringing public the extent that someone is willing to put animals through over and over to get something they feel they need and what the genetics are of these morphs. I also think this is classic to show everyone the mind set and difference between people breeding for the love and preservation of the species and those in it for the money product. Some of us feel that is what is wrong with this industry and has created many of the problems that owners and new breeders not knowing what went on prior, are having to deal with. Personally, I find that whole post disgusting and very disturbing.

This would be like me saying that "I know that you know that breeders are also testing positive for corona virus, along with adeno". Did I just open a can of worms?! Josh

Josh again, if you have something to say, can you just say it and not play games with people or allude that there is some big conspiracy you and someone else are cooking up? I have no clue what can of worms you think or HOPE you may have opened, just more games that seem to thrive between you and a few others. Best I can remember is that 2 owners had corona and adeno (like 7 of their test out of about 60) , one had corona only that we thought might have adeno, but was clear for adeno and those babies tested clear of anything 3 weeks later. A few also had other virus particles not identified, so I think that leaves close to another 400 that showed adeno only and that was including fecals, PRC and necropsy reports. So... your point is?

RE: you seeing patterns, it does not surprise me you may claim to see many things, seems someone is painting a lot of pictures for you and others and making up tales, not accurate or really existing, but still.... they are trying, for whatever reason and seem to have a captive audience. I see a differnt pattern, I wonder if others are able to now?

To get back to the point: test, don't breed and sell infected animals LIKE the experts say, try to contain it and stop making more new breeder that do not know what went on in the past, pay the price so some can keep it business as usual Oh, yeah, it would also be nice to see people stop producing sickly, deformed, suffering and dying animals or to use the word that is applied often culled, cause they feel they need to and continue to trash the gene pool in the US that will continue to show up again for generations to come.

More sob stories

how many people tested positive for coronavirus along with adeno?

I can say. My dragons didnt test positive for Corona at all.. But 3 of them did test positive for a parvo type virus where dependo virus couldnt be ruled out. I have 2 others that just show adeno.. If you want I cal also attach these results.

Originally Posted by shadi11

I can say. My dragons didnt test positive for Corona at all.. But 3 of them did test positive for a parvo type virus where dependo virus couldnt be ruled out. I have 2 others that just show adeno.. If you want I cal also attach these results.

I would also be happy to attach my results, but would have to have a bit of instruction on how to do so.

I don't know if Josh's question was aimed at me, but I'm going to answer anyway.

I had one adult that tested positive for adeno, and also tested positive for a parvo type virus where dependo virus couldn't be ruled out.

I also had one baby (obtained from another breeder) that tested positive for adeno, as well as calici virus...and I have no idea what that is.

The other dragons tested positive for adeno only.

For the record, I have never had an issue with die-offs until the babies that we have right now. I did have a few of them necropsied with negative results for the virus. However, when I originally contacted the lab that did the necropsies, I was told that they did NOT have an electron microscope, but that they could identify the virus if it was present. I have since found out that is not true for two reasons. The virus would only be detected under an electron microscope and that with babies this young (they were 3 weeks old), due to the incubation period of the virus...that it had not had time to cause damage in the organs. Hopefully I understood what was explained to me correctly.

Further, those babies produced last year (before we tested) were offspring of what we now know is at least one positive testing parent. Now, what I'm not sure of is if the parents were infected before breeding, or more recently.

The quote in post #63 has been changed - Sorry for the typo… perhaps now it will make a bit of sense. From our first post - the last sentence of the 1st paragraph was attributed to the 2nd paragraph in Cheri‘s response.

Originally Posted by CheriS

Please do, I have not seen anything addressed publicly yet and welcome your comments since you seem to know names, dates, line etc, I would assume you are aware of something that many others are not and we would all appreciate hearing.

Originally Posted by CheriS

It showed up in the US heavily in bearded dragons that I know of, that were imported from Germany in 1997-2000 to Florida, in the german giants and redflame lines, later the orange glow line and those were all crossed together. Don't panic there were lines from the both GG and redflame that were healthy/clear of the virus so do not assume if you have a dragon from those line, that it is infected. Some of those were shipped back to Europe *(this is significant later) but also sold heavily in the New England (PA, NJ, NY) and Southern(FL, NC. SC, GA) states at reptile shows and also a group went to Arizona. Still it could have been contained, as it was pretty well known what lines and who had it back in 2001-2002. But again, some breeders elected to continue to sell stock they knew were infected.

You pointed the above finger at Pete for being at the heart of the problem - and have been for some time now… and then asked for us to post additional information that we may have in reference to names, dates and lines. That I will not do.

Originally Posted by CheriS

EMAIL FROM VICKI:
> "Flame" from Chris Allen came from us. He is a Redflame X Sandfire
> cross. So if you breed that male to something - say a FlaminTiger you
> may not realise that their fathers are the same dragon. Here is the
> break down
> Redflame came directly from Pete Weis the first year he had them. (they
> were nice red to start, but stresssed easily
> so I think he crossed them out because they never looked the same
> afterwords.)
> The Sandfire came from Nick (east coast rep for sandfire before Paul
> took over)
* a note on the above statement,, Chris Allen states " Flame was from Chuck Tornetta, not the Dachiu and that he was from Chuck's own pairing of dragons. Flame is from weis redflame and sandfire's sandfire red lines"

So I guess there is always the possibility that you got some dragons mixed up since he said Flame did not come from you and maybe there is more confusion in the quality of the first generation Redflame dragons that you bought and initially told me were nice. I do not know, I can only go on what you and others said about the them prior. If you have changed your take on that now, or what you prior claimed, I can edit that information,

No, there is no need to edit the information as it is accurate - but you may want to include the “stressed easily” part. In my opinion, an easily stressed dragon doesn’t quite make the “hearty” mark.
To the best of my knowledge, and Chuck’s recollection, his Red Flame was not from the 1st generation that was offered.

Originally Posted by CheriS

The only thing *I* present to the community about how to handle infected dragons is the same as Dr Wentz and Dr Jacobson, is taken from their published works, with their consent, both appearing in full body on my website for anyone to check, so they are being presented by themselves, not me. If you choose to spin that along with all these other added words into something it is not, that is your choice.

We are not “spinning” anything here - we are trying to unravel the knots. You, with your ‘history’ point fingers at certain breeders for knowingly dumping infected stock all over the east coast of the USA. Where are the facts to support this? Is it the “data on the transmission of this since 2002”? Please explain to me how it is possible to trace this pathogen back through bloodlines/breeders when you, yourself, state that it is your personal opinion that this has been transmitted through contact reptile shows? “Two of these breeders were selling at the shows, one was visiting.” If it is spread that easily, with thousands of people through the door at most shows - I can see a pretty big glitch in the accuracy of the bloodline/breeder data.


Please point out to me exactly where either Dr. Jacobson or Dr. Wentz have “published works” on how to handle adenovirus infected dragons. ReptileRooms?

Dr. Jacobson offered a letter to the dragon community to address “mis-information” that was circulating. This letter was studded with “In my opinion” and “it is my impression”. This is a summary of Dr. Jacobson’s impressions and opinions based upon the facts available to him - by his own words. In no way, shape or form has he implied that this is to be taken as a “published work”.

Dr. Wentz presented a talk at the 26th IHS on adenovirus. His paper has been reproduced in the abstract found online and on various web sites. Although informative - this information presented by Dr. Wentz is also not a “published work”.

In fact, I have a very hard time getting a veterinarian to do more than acknowledge either as any more than an opinion. They do not bad-mouth them or the information provided, but more than once I have been told that if it has not been peer reviewed and/or published in a recognized format - it is an opinion or observation only.

Originally Posted by CheriS

NO, and even implying by questioning such on here tells me and I hope others something about the depths some sink to.
It is very insulting to even have to answer such a filthy question, but its there(why does that not surprise me) so.......HE chaged the way references were listed and did replace that one with the original one, but it did not alter the content of the message. As far as consecutive correspondences with Dr. Jacobson, I talk to him on the phone and in email about many things, including his yapping dogs he loves, when he walks them. Have I transcribed those and put them public, no, they were private conversations or emails.. and your point is?

I apologize for you feeling insulted - it was a sincere question. I was not referring to the references that were added to the bottom of the email though. I was referring to the comments in the letter that are highlighted in bold on your web site. It is a common practice that information presented in different text or type is of higher significance than that is not - text books do this ALL of the time to lodge the importance into the readers head.
Did Dr. Jacobson really highlight in bold partial sentences in that email? Or did you highlight in bold the information that you felt important?

Originally Posted by Denisebme

I'm honestly a bit frustrated with what I've seen. Anyone who wants information about this disease can simply search out their own answers….
…If you experience is anything like mine, and I know that Tere had very similar experiences, then you are going to hear the same names over and over, Dr. Wentz (My spelling may be off here), and Dr. Jacobson.

We have always said that people need to research adenovirus further… and test further and consecutively so that we can get a better picture of the virus as a whole and its cycles.

Originally Posted by Motor City Dragons

That almost sounded like a dare...

Randy, that was not a dare. It was not directed at any particular person at all - but rather at a sad set of circumstances that have come about. You have posted publicly your experiences with positive, yet otherwise healthy animals… but there are many additional people who prefer to keep to themselves instead of posting information that directly contradicts popular opinion.


It is honestly about time more of the information has gotten out. But this time, lets make the information available within context - let the facts be presented as facts and opinions or experiences stated as such.


PS - We also saw the Translucents in Daytona 2003 that Sandfire had available. Cheri, I have to agree with you, we weren't impressed. But we have also seen Dr. Wentz dragons at various reptile shows and I can assure you that if I had to pick from one of the 2 back then - Id have a new Translucent.
Most translucent dragons available today - do not have eye problems, MBD or a goofy stance. Josh has made extreme advances in improving the overall health of this line given what he had to start with.

Thank you to all of you who have posted additional information from your test results.

Here is a link to a site with additional information the viruses mentioned.
http://www.tulane.edu/~dmsander/garryfavweb11.html
And the CDC has some information also.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/index.htm
(If anyone has information on any of these viruses in reptiles, please share.)

Sadly, most of these viruses cause diarrhea, which in turn leads to dehydration and malnutrition. What supportive care would you choose for these animals? Here’s an interesting article by Clifford Warwick that has been posted by M. Kaplin.
http://www.anapsid.org/warwick3.html