Scam Artist Keven Vogenberger

Originally Posted by Black Adder

As I already hinted at I am with Tom on this score.

It does not truly matter if Keven does indeed manage to channel a little bit of his proceeds towards more animals there is no way I could ever condone any actions that allowed poor defenceless creatures to just starve, suffer and die.

Sorry but just do not get anybody who could let that happen no matter what the larger picture may be in theory.

That is the thing, though.

...there is no way I could ever condone any actions that allowed poor defenceless creatures to just starve, suffer and die.

Either choice allows exactly this. Some folks may want to think the one path is less worse. Other folks may want to think the other path is less worse. It all probably evens out (mostly), but a reasonable argument can also be made that perpetuation of the practices could lead to more losses drawn out over a longer time via increment since they could be subsidized by the profits as he goes along. And that would be if he is keeping track of all of the dollars in a methodical way and logically evaluating the profits and losses in regular intervals. If he is not, and I doubt Keven is a person of strong accounting acumen, a person doing what he has been doing is more likely to selectively remember his wins over his losses unless the losses occur in a large and painful fashion. It is a flaw in human psychology. People tell me very confidently that they made $500 when they sold a turtle for $500. That they bought for $250. Last year. That had to be fed, cleaned, and heated for a year. There is delusion there. Others buy a wholesale group and "forget" about the two adorable little munchkins out of 30-50 that crapped out by flipping under a heat lamp or something. For some, there is delusion there as well. Some of these animals are very inexpensive to acquire. Even free with the pseudo-"rescue" stuff tugging at the heartstrings of more gullible (and kind) people. He can still start over if he is wiped out, but he is less encouraged to continue if he is in fact wiped out. By wiped out, I do not mean the only path is via death, but it is one. While I am not advocating for or against that approach, I understand it. None of the people who would say to avoid buying from him are desiring the death of those animals. They would be desiring that he would not be causing the death of future animals and they see no way way to get the latter while using purchase to avoid the former.

This type of person is pretty stubborn. I would like him to take stock, own up, and plainly stop doing what he is doing. For the sake of the animals. Of his own volition. Do I think that will happen without some kind of strong deterrent? I do not. Do I think that will happen if he gets paid for what he has been doing? I do not.

People could get into this mental space where one half-solution that is not a perfect whole solution is purported to be bad so the proponents of the other half-solution that is not a perfect whole solution can go on considering themselves to be the better and more righteous people. This could be applied to either of the half-solutions. I see both half-solutions as having functional merits and demerits and parties subscribing to either half-solution being good people who are trying to tackle things the way they think is best overall - even if they are not in agreement on which half-solution to choose.

...there is no way I could ever condone any actions that allowed poor defenceless creatures to just starve, suffer and die.

Every time we do not buy an animal that we think will otherwise die from inadequate care (think of how many sickly ones you might see at a table or in an online ad), our choice of inaction allows exactly that. Are you going to buy Keven out? Are you going to buy every animal you ever see or become aware of that is in a wretched condition such that they will just starve, suffer, and die in the event that you pass on buying? I will not, so I am "guilty" of that inaction and I am fine saying so. If you stand by the principle I have quoted repeatedly now, I am impressed that you are buying all of these and countless more.

Does anyone have keven's address? if so post it here.

Put the brakes on. Posting Keven's address is really over the line. What do you want to come out of this? I was going to quit responding to this thread but it has now entered stalker territory. He is going to have to answer to charges of stealing enough merchandise to get a heavy fine, pay restitution and possibly serve jail time in Florida. Why not put the venomous posts into positive action and figure out how to get the remaining animals in his possession.

Originally Posted by tcp2

Keven would only get a small portion of the money from the animals he will need for his legal bills and restitution. I doubt there will be anything left to try starting over selling animals again.

If Keven has criminal charges and cannot pay for an attorney, one will be provided for him. As far as restitution, that is a long way away and there is no guarantee that restitution will be required, there is no sure thing when trying to forecast the results of a criminal trial, and the pet shop may not want to initiate a civil trial especially if their business insurance covers theft as it ordinarily does.

Keven is a master manipulator, he had people on Fauna wanting to give him all sorts of second chances because when cornered he is very good at saying anything that will get him out of that corner.

So any requirements that Keven divest himself of animals or even stop flipping isn't going to happen in the immediate future if at all.

If anything, he can raise the prices on his animals while at the same time using his legal woes as a way to generate sales because it is obvious that people open their hearts and purses when he starts talking; it happened here on Fauna where he promised to be good a while back and people were posting, begging the rest of us to give him another chance.

As of yesterday evening, he had renewed his KS ads. Not an act indicative of stopping the income stream.

Originally Posted by nickolasanastasiou

As of yesterday evening, he had renewed his KS ads. Not an act indicative of stopping the income stream.

I saw that, because I had been watching for viper boas. He has a pair of 'healthy' proven adults, but one of those pics shows lumps that remind me of subcutaneous worms or something similar. I am not super familiar with the common parasites in WC viper boas, as my only one is CB. I know WC often do need to be treated though.

He has a LOT of ads, and his address is posted in his KS profile... so it's public and put out there by him.

How generous of him. Might as well buy them directly off of "the list" for $150 apiece since that is what they are listed at individually. For the extra money, those animals should be nice examples rather than having nodules indicative of things such as subcutaneous nematodes. It is fine to resell and especially worth more if they have had work put into them to clean them up, but those photos show otherwise. And proven? Maybe if the female expelled young she was imported with. Shame.

Originally Posted by tcp2

Put the brakes on. Posting Keven's address is really over the line. What do you want to come out of this? I was going to quit responding to this thread but it has now entered stalker territory. He is going to have to answer to charges of stealing enough merchandise to get a heavy fine, pay restitution and possibly serve jail time in Florida. Why not put the venomous posts into positive action and figure out how to get the remaining animals in his possession.

No Tom it is not over the line and I am not a stalker.

I asked that to provide florida law enforcement with more information so they can move forward with their investigation and that may relieve keven of all his herps.it's not like it's not posted as he has posted in a few places his self.

keven vogenberger is a bad guy that has been selling sick herps for some time now.

Originally Posted by Ed Clark

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I asked that to provide florida law enforcement with more information so they can move forward with their investigation and that may relieve keven of all his herps.

I'm stumped -- the police don't know Kevin's address?

Originally Posted by Socratic Monologue

I'm stumped -- the police don't know Kevin's address?

Maybe I'd understand the motivation for publicizing Kevin's address if I understood the rationale behind forcibly relieving Kevin of his reptiles at all. I don't see how this

Originally Posted by lg_beardie

I really hope he has his rights to keeping any animals revoked, absolutely toxic.

follows from a theft conviction (I assume he'll be convicted). We were already all pretty much agreed that Kevin was selling substandard, unhealthy animals and was wildly ignorant of their care and is a chronic liar and so on -- but I don't see what a property crime adds to that vis a vis a right to keep animals.

Tom's formulation of this point was apparently made only out of concern for the animals, which Kevin may not be in a good position to care for because his life is more complicated now, not because he's lost some right:

Originally Posted by tcp2

Keven had a lot of animals for sale posted on another site. I am assuming that he posted bail. It appears that his rodent source has dried up. He was asking really high prices so he still probably has most of them. Does anyone know Keven? It would be a good idea to see if he is taking care of the numerous animals that he still has. The care is probably not winning any awards. It would be great if someone can check up on the animals. Even better, see if he will part with them for a reasonable amount so they can go to good home.

This thread has already established that Kevin is a bad guy on a few distinct fronts, but I don't think kicking him while he's down is even intended to make anything about the situation any better.