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Old 03-13-2014, 02:33 PM   #21
zookeeperfrank
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucille View Post
While facts are facts, beliefs or feelings are very much relevant in whether and how much risk should be assumed by various parties that might come into contact with a venomous critter kept in an enclosure, professionally in a zoo/business or privately.

I have said before that those who are irresponsible represent a great risk to the public and especially to children who are naturally curious and tend to pick up critters who may have escaped inadequate housing. I do not believe the innocent and unaware should bear any risk from the actions irresponsible keepers.

How to arrange that is another can of worms, but that is what I believe.

On the other hand, those adults who are capable, who have professional grade enclosures and rooms set aside for housing would seem to risk only themselves.
People go skydiving and step out of perfectly good airplanes for fun. I think that is insanity (we are not talking military, we are talking for fun) and I would never do that in a zillion years but I am not prepared to tell an adult that they can't skydive because their parachute might not open.

Well, as I've said, I've heard this and much more, many times...I give up, good luck to all.

If anyone need references to peer-reviewed research, other experts, factual info, please do not hesitate to be in touch, but I can't continue to debate in this manner, Frank
 
Old 03-13-2014, 02:48 PM   #22
Lucille
Quote:
Originally Posted by zookeeperfrank View Post
I can't continue to debate in this manner, Frank
You can, but you apparently won't.
Perhaps that is a valid action, because the debate leaves your field of expertise and enters the much bigger arena of rights, responsibilities, and what government should and should not do as far as restricting activity for the benefit of its citizens.
It is a debate about freedom versus safety, and it is an old, old debate.
 
Old 03-13-2014, 02:52 PM   #23
j_dunlavy
"I feel" was probably poor choice of words on my part; that is what I get for not proofreading.
To re phrase my previous comment:
From the perspective of someone on the outside looking in, it seems to me that there will always be a great risk, much of which is touched upon by Frank, regarding preparedness. I however, it seems that even in a professional (non-private) setting there is the potential for similar risks, it just helps that more people are involved in the emergency response system, making it more efficient. Even in a zoo, if someone suffers a bad bite from a black mamba or tiger snake, there is a high risk of death. From my perspective, it would appear that private keepers, if properly trained and equipped, can safely maintain venomous collections. If someone is fully aware of all aspects of the risk, then based on what I can see at this time I think they should be able to get a license to keep them if they are properly equipped and have appropriate protocols in place.

As for the other comment I made:
The one thing I feel should be different is the licensing requirements. I feel that all venomous snakes should require a license to keep. The fact that (in most counties) native CA venomous (ruber aside) require no permit, yet copperheads require a state permit is kind of crazy. Essentially without a permit it would be legal to keep SoPac or Mojave rattlers but illegal to obtain a copperhead.
~what I mean is, based on my current knowledge of venom, copperheads are less dangerous under similar bite conditions than some of the snakes that can be legally kept without permit requirements being met, in CA that is.

Just to give you all a little info about where I am coming from:
I was looking into obtaining a venomous permit a few years ago. I was working on a long term plan but gave it up in its infancy at the request of my wife. I got as far as researching the legal requirements to obtain the permit. Now had I gotten past the second step (working with non-venomous, aggressive animals for 2 years without a bite) and moved on to the 2 year internship at an institution working with venomous snakes, perhaps I would have changed my perspective and decided that private citizens should not be allowed to keep hots. Frank has that perspective after years of experience in a professional and scientific capacity and thus, I have taken all he has to say very seriously (there is no substitute for that kind of experience).

As far as the question of how much risk somebody feels they can handle; that can be tricky. The NC kid that had those hots illegally FELT he could handle it... he was wrong and his friend paid for it. Most people tend to overestimate what they are capable of (or underestimate what the snake is capable of) and that is where things can go horribly wrong.
 
Old 03-13-2014, 03:56 PM   #24
zookeeperfrank
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucille View Post
You can, but you apparently won't.
Perhaps that is a valid action, because the debate leaves your field of expertise and enters the much bigger arena of rights, responsibilities, and what government should and should not do as far as restricting activity for the benefit of its citizens.
It is a debate about freedom versus safety, and it is an old, old debate.
As mentioned earlier, this topic always winds up with a discussion of rights, gov regs etc., and I have no interest in such matters. As for expertise in that area, a bit of advice - if you are seeking to change opinions or be taken seriously, do not make statements that you have not researched, especially re another's qualifications, etc... I am an attorney, admitted to the NYS bar in 1981 - not an expert when compared to attorneys who specialize in the above, but not somewhat well-informed, just not interested at all in the subject.
 
Old 03-13-2014, 05:09 PM   #25
Lucille
Quote:
Originally Posted by zookeeperfrank View Post
As mentioned earlier, this topic always winds up with a discussion of rights, gov regs etc., and I have no interest in such matters. As for expertise in that area, a bit of advice - if you are seeking to change opinions or be taken seriously, do not make statements that you have not researched, especially re another's qualifications, etc... I am an attorney, admitted to the NYS bar in 1981 - not an expert when compared to attorneys who specialize in the above, but not somewhat well-informed, just not interested at all in the subject.
I am an attorney as well. That expertise is not a requirement when each citizen chooses to enter the old debate of government versus individual rights.

That this topic always ends up with a discussion of rights is no surprise, that you have no interest in such matters certainly is.
 

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