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Old 04-09-2007, 10:03 AM   #31
Originally Posted by draggintails
We do not guarantee they are adeno free, if you must have this, then go find some wacko that will give it to you and pass me by...
Why is it only a "wacko" could have negative dragons?
Old 04-09-2007, 11:20 AM   #32
From what I read of what she wrote, only a "wacko" would feel they are AV neg even with testing done. There is still guarantee that a neg proves to stay neg.

Just my opinion on what Ive read.

Old 04-09-2007, 11:33 AM   #33
Should say There is still no guarantee that a neg proves to stay neg.
Old 04-09-2007, 12:00 PM   #34
Originally Posted by JimD
Should say There is still no guarantee that a neg proves to stay neg.
Jim, are you the expert? I do not know how you can be so closed minded and believe only what your boss thinks. I though you were looking for answers like the rest of us, but it seems you are still at work.
Old 04-09-2007, 12:04 PM   #35
No not quite. I read the letter. We need a lot more testing done to answer the rest of everyones questions. What are the neg to pos. Without more testing that number will be all over the board. The same people need to test multiple times and the doctors need to keep track of the old negs that turn pos.
Im not saying there are not negitives out there. Im asking how many are going to stay negitive?
Old 04-09-2007, 12:07 PM   #36
Originally Posted by JimD
No not quite. I read the letter. We need a lot more testing done to answer the rest of everyones questions. What are the neg to pos. Without more testing that number will be all over the board. The same people need to test multiple times and the doctors need to keep track of the old negs that turn pos.
Im not saying there are not negitives out there. Im asking how many are going to stay negitive?
I agree, but did you not say yours was clean before? I might be wrong, but I think you said that your dragons are clean too.
Old 04-09-2007, 12:13 PM   #37
I can say 100% that I have never said Im clean of AV. I cant even find where to get the testing done here yet. I think there is a very good chance seeing as a lot of my dragons came from all over the States.
We are activly looking around so we can test. In the meantime, if asked, I will answer most likely.
I will not argue or fight over AV any more. The paper came out and we can all make of it what we want.

Old 04-09-2007, 12:14 PM   #38
I have negative test results verifiable with Florida and IL.

I meant only a wacko would give a negative guarantee on a baby, I was thinking of Chastity and she was making this premature gaurantee with great conviction. I think she is not all there.

Yes, I see clearly that I said only wackos have negative dragons. It is written plain as day and I retract that.

Old 04-09-2007, 03:09 PM   #39
This is like beating a head against a wall


When we started in 2002 tracking positive with death and illness dragons there was no PCR or EM tests to test dragons with to find negative ones. We were tracing an illness, not a healthy factor..... a dying, illness and failure to thrive disease to see what was the cause, if it was able to be stopped and if there were other factors involved in it.

You keep wanting to condemn me for not tracking and seeing negative dragons. We were doing illness verified by full necropsy. There was no other option to verify, but liver bios and those were done on sick dragons, not healthy ones, we even experiment with some antiviral medications on some dragons.... there was no reason to test healthy ones. Those did list Adenovirus as cause of death or a contributing factor. There were some that also found other issues, like coccidia, pinworms, coronavirus, dependo virus, aspergillus, fusarium, we collected what was available for DISEASE, not health. Some showed only adenovirus, and there were also some that showed there was NO trace of adenovirus at all and yes, I have seen those with my own eyes, I had them myself. We were looking at fatal disease... PCR or EM does NOT do that.

The one overwhelming thing that became clear that first year (2002) is that almost every single case/owner/colony traced back to ONE breeder in Florida (not you or your Dad, I want to make that clear). Later that year that breeder sold all his dragons off and stopped breeding and we saw another mass breeder start having cases traced to them and from pet stores they sold too, besides the first one still. The next year there was a big drop in reports and then suddenly it increases again in 2005 from several different breeders, but still most the cases are going back to one of these 2 breeders offsprings. The same breeder that the dragons that Dr. Wentz did his study from originated from in 2000 and that at least 2 dozen other owners trace to right then... disease, dying and ill.

I think it was significant that not a single reported case of death and illness that was confirmed related to adenovirus was coming from 3 of the largest breeders in the US during this time, who are on the West Coast.... WHY? We felt it had to have something to do with what was coming out of these other 2 breeder's collections (now one as the other was went out of business). By this time EM testing was available through a vet in MO that was trying to work with this virus as he has seen many cases of it and we referred people to him. In 2005 we heard about the PCR and started telling people about that (it was published in Dec 2004) and in August 2006 we heard about the EM at the Univ of IL was available direct now too and referred people to that. This is when breeders and owners started testing not only ill animals, but also healthy animals and we STOPPED collecting any data as it was no longer about disease. Later I found out that neither of these test, verified illness and one does not even verify that it is adeno that affects bearded dragons, it can be another species adeno they have ingested from food or the environment!

When "A" in 1997-2002 sells to "B", "C", and "D" and they all sell offspring in 2000-2003 to several others who sell offspring in 2005-2006 and ALL of those have disease, death and failure to thrive too, with necropsy linking it to the same thing, there is a problem with that and it needs to be looked into. It is can not be all of their husbandry, some of these are very good breeders. There is then a slow down in 2004 and then it blooms again in 2005-2006.. yet almost all still go back to those same earlier breeders and from them to the first one in 2002 that was selling in 1997-2002.

We tracked Disease, not health and I had no reason not to believe people about illness and death..... who would want to lie about that!!

EM tells you SOME kind of adenovirus is present, it does not tell you what species, strain (if there are other) or disease related to it

PCR tells you the species, but not what strain (if there are others) or disease related to it

Liver bio or necropsy with advance studies like in situ or PRC does tell you the species AND disease..... we were looking at disease, and it was in consistant lines and breeders, not all dragons certain had that, not even close and not all were positive either, that is a wrong statement and no one is wacky that has that. I do not know if ones positive for ANY adeno are a threat, no one knows the answer to that, hey certainly are not if it is canine, feline, human or another specie adeno in the fecal... ...we were never looking at that and had no reason to be till these 2 test came out that do not show disease.
Old 04-09-2007, 06:58 PM   #40
There is no doubt that it feels like you're beating your head against a wall Cheri, I'm sure Tammy feels the same way, and I'm not sure that even talking about all the history is that important right now. I mean no disrespect when I say that, it just isn't going to change anything
I also know this after talking to Tammy, she paid a very high price for trying to do the right thing, and there is absolutely no one who can understand how she feels right now without walking a mile in her shoes. I know its absolutely no consolation, but I have a lot of respect for her and what she has to say.

At this point, we all know that a couple people have been horribly impacted, not only by adenovirus, but also simply by not enough information.
Where do we go from here??

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