Updates- Hatched Veileds LOTS OF PICS

Jack,

How does basing bulb use decissions on published data from a scientific study from a reputable chameleon nutritionist and biology professor on his research on the effects of articial UV light in captive chameleons qualify as something read on some internet site? Its hardly "hypothesized research" as you claim when studies have actually been conducted on chameleons with these findings. I really fail to see how you manage to classify years of scientific research as worthless and seem to glorify random chameleon care books written by hobbyists as gold, just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

I'm not saying these bulbs don't have their uses and that if you use them correctly that they can't be good bulbs. I use MV bulbs on my larger enclosures too. My issue is that safe conditions to use them are often misunderstood and this is a prime example. A small fish tank is not one of the situations where these bulbs are suited for safe use. Its exactly what you said: "Do not be an idiot and subject your cham to direct UV exposure at these levels 12 hrs a day with no where to run and you wont have a problem." A tank that size and at that distance from the bulb (at that distance its a concentrated spot of high UV radience levels), regardless of the position of the light in the cage, has an extreme potential for problems. Now, the way you've described your bulb as killing feeder insects and causing burns does make me wonder about if it is being used safely too. You simply shouldn't have burn worries if you are being careful and using equipment in a safe manner for the animals.

You can say that I'm just not open to new technology if you want. You can say I'm freaking out needlessly if you want. You can bash the sources of my rational all you want. The bottom line is that scientific research preformed at scientific institutions and published in scientific peer review journals has indicated that improper use of these high intensity UV bulbs (little putting one 10" above a fish tank with baby chameleons) has the potential to have adverse effects on chameleons that could easily be avoided by use of bulbs that have been proven to be safe and effective in scientific studies and the experiences of many breeders and keepers. Its not just random cr*p published by some hobbyist who wrote a book based on imperical observations and as such, I tend to take it a lot more seriously than any desire to be cutting edge and play with bulbs shown to have dangerous potential based on their levels of UV output.

Wendy,

In her article, Lynda wasn't using a high output UV bulb in a glass tank, true. Studies haven't shown lower output 2.0 bulbs to be as good as the mid range 5.0 but when used properly, they also don't fit into the output known to deminish the life expectancy of your chameleons. While I would agree that a 5.0 would have been better on her enclosures, I don't see using a 2.0 to match the same potential risk as using a 10.0 when using a tank and having the bulbs mounted as close as they are (I still think the intensity of your light in a glass tank, even at your 10" above the tank is going to create a focal spot of high intensity UV rays that can potentially be harmful).

As for the lighting article, if you had read it you would notice that it is the first part of a multiple part article. The second part is still being written and researched (including analysis of bulb outputs like we've been talking about). Please see the last paragraph where is says: "In the next part of this article we’ll look at the most common lighting technologies that we might buy for our chameleon: Fluorescent, Mercury Vapour, Metal Halide etc. We’ll be providing a little information about the amount and kind of light the lamp produces and other relevant issues bearing in mind what we have already discussed here." I will be sure to recommend to the author that light readings on these high intensity lights be taken and discussed as well.

Chris

Chris if you want to help people why don't you post a good care and info sheet on what is the best to do and use nd how to use it etc.

I did read the 08/04 with the more coming and there is more info on other sites that is way more informative and worded to where most owners can uderstand and some give suggestions of what to use instead of alot of scientific terms, facts and info on lighting that the average owner cannot understand and gives not one suggestion as to what is correct.

So before you jump off and tell people what they are doing wrong, take a stand, write a care sheet, post it on some site, fauna, yours somewhere that can be easily located my owners that gives suggestions as to the proper bulb use and height above the cage. Then you can say you knew this was wrong and did it anyway.

What I did was RIGHT I put the bulb 10" above the highest branch, the chams were not exposed to an unnatural light for an extended period of time and they were provided good vegetation and cover for the 3 days they were in the tank. They were also put in natural sunlight within a period of 1 - 3 days.

Other info on your sites suggest to leave this bulb on for 14 hours at a distance of 2" even with a 2.0 that is too extreme for the small tank that was reccommended. Much more extreme than my 10.0 10" above on for 10 hours with a gradient and an area of no uvb if desired.

I am not sure why you feel the need to try to make others look less intiligent than they are by posting obvious information that really doesn't prove anything.

Its kinda like those 10 researches that say "this causes ***** in mice so it must pertain to humans" and then 10 others say "this causes this in mice and does not pertain to humans" only becuse both are mammals, Im sure they are all correct in their findings on both sides of the debate but people must go on and do what they have found to work for them not for a different person or on a different species than they are working with because every study has 2 sides.

Chirs after all of this you now use one single word that allows me to agree with you and that was "IMPROPER USE". I felt that you were previously saying that these bulbs are no good as they are. Maybe my point was a little harsh based upon my misuderstading of what you meant and I appologize.

PS disregard the killing insect thing. For some reason that I do not know the exact reason for my silkies were dying once placed into his set up after anout 1-2 hrs. I originally figured it was the UV but then saw them dead when the UV was never even turned on. I think 99% of it was the heat, they are very fragile and die in higher temps that chams like. I think that was all it was, but for sure it was not the UV since it was off and had been off. They seem to live longer in the AM when it is coller is what let me beleive the heat is what killed them.
I guess I can not see your points on this UV topic. I know that you like that one study but somethign tells me if it were repeated again and again there would be different endings. There reall is no way to set up a perfect study either since the health of the cham ect can vary as could many other factors. My basic and remedial observation is that if outdoor keeping is best then why not make indoor keeping as close to the environemts as possible. The weak bulbs just dont cut it. Yes I understand they are safer for small cages to where my bulb would surely kill them but for my particular set up and large ones like mine it works so far. I could be wrong and have dead chams soon but somethign tells me that is doubtfull. They are thriving and I have no issues to date.

PSS Dragonflys you are right on and I wish there were more open people like us around that do not base all thoughts off our favorite single study. Be well and let me know how your chams are doing. PM if you liek and we dont have to deal with all this "I know best". This is why I dreaded joining these sites. My 1911 45 acp gun sites are the same, someone is always superior. Fighting and guns arent the nicest forums either, lol.

Yeah Chris. Why don't you post some care sheets or something istead of taking your own time to publish a e-zine written by chameleon keepers for chameleon keepers that is absolutely full of good information based on actual experience. Or sharing information from scientific studies conducted by one of the few researchers actually studying chameleons in a captive environment for multiple generations. I for one think we need a lot more information based on nothing more than ego and a few months of experience, or better yet based entirely on one book written by someone who has very little actual chameleon experience. So get to work on that please Chris. Thanks

Originally Posted by JasonDescamps

Yeah Chris. Why don't you post some care sheets or something istead of taking your own time to publish a e-zine written by chameleon keepers for chameleon keepers that is absolutely full of good information based on actual experience. Or sharing information from scientific studies conducted by one of the few researchers actually studying chameleons in a captive environment for multiple generations. I for one think we need a lot more information based on nothing more than ego and a few months of experience, or better yet based entirely on one book written by someone who has very little actual chameleon experience. So get to work on that please Chris. Thanks

Jason have you actually read the e-zine? Did you read my post above with the link to the set up I used that came from the e-zine?

Most of it is outdated and I followed the e-zine set up for the babies except for the fact that it was outdated info being 3 years old so I used a newer higher grade bulb.

So no Chris don't help anyone by updating info, keep on copying email stories from people and never update the info and keep copying research done by the researchers that is worded in a way that the average person does not understand and keep on not giving suggestions for what is proper to use. But when you think someone has used the wrong bulb tell them and try to degrade them.

I called breeders who have been breeding for 5-7 years, I didn't just sit at a computer and read pages, I didn't just sit and read outdated info, and outdated books. I talked to them myself and I used my best judgement from all I did read online, and the books and the personal converstaions I had.

I have my chams in natural sunlight which is exactly what they need.
I had them in a smaller more controlled tank for 1-3 days until eating was confirmed.
I gave them UVB with a gradient that is obvious in the pics posted.
Instead of using a 2.0 bulb ast 2", I used a 10.0 at 10"

Good job guys way to pick out the CHAM NAZI I am glad there are people around tiwht a good head on their shoulders.
dragonflys you are correct in what you are doing and I to have made sever phone calls and written emails to vaious people askign for ideas and opinions on subjects. I then take in all the info and try to make sense of it and when I do I ask more questions to affirm my understandings then go with what I think is best. It is not Chris's way so then it must be wrong but in my observations from having tried all the options he merely talks about I can clearly see what is best.
Your outdoor keeping is great and there is nothing better. Funny fact that I wrote and I will re state it is that these bulbs produce very close amts of UV as does the sun at 12 noon. These bulbs best replicate what outdoor use can offer which is the ultimate goal in the end of all this BS. It makes perfect sense to me and I took into consideration pure non argumental data, not my single most afvorite study that supports what I think.
Again the sun produces 150 microwatts at noon and these bulbs, or at least mystic bulbs, produce 140 microwatts at 12 inches. This means 2 things to me, there is more usable UV further deep into a lage cage, and it simulates the sun the closest as compared to any bulb out there to date. Now consider a 5.0 bulb that puts off about 15 microwatts all day long. Sure it is usable UV but the cham must be no more than 12 incehs away meaning that UV levels are always decreasing with distance to nearly nothing. This is the most un-natural replication of nature I can think of. But not to say I dont use it because for my baby cage it is a must since anythign more will cause damage. My 2 ft tall cage with my 5 month baby cham can not handle the intense UV. THis is why my chams go outdoors about 2 times a week to ensure they are getting all they need. When my baby graduates to his big cage then I feel more comforatble knowing he has all he needs and outdoor use is only for added benefits.
Be well you guys and keep in touch with what is going on I would love to see some more pics. I gathe up some new ones too.

PS go read my cricket recipe I got from a breader by strong suggestion. It works great and is much better then the bottle stuff.

Originally Posted by dragonflyreptiles

Jason have you actually read the e-zine? Did you read my post above with the link to the set up I used that came from the e-zine?

Most of it is outdated and I followed the e-zine set up for the babies except for the fact that it was outdated info being 3 years old so I used a newer higher grade bulb.

Yes I sure did. I read every article in the e-zine and have written a few myself.

So you used it for your setup, but it is outdated? Okay.

I would think that without any actual applied chameleon experience it would be difficult to call anything outdated. Would I recommend a 2.0 bulb for chams? Nope, I wouldn't. But I also wouldn't recommend many things that European keepers do and they are pretty successful with it.

Originally Posted by dragonflyreptiles

So no Chris don't help anyone by updating info, keep on copying email stories from people and never update the info and keep copying research done by the researchers that is worded in a way that the average person does not understand and keep on not giving suggestions for what is proper to use. But when you think someone has used the wrong bulb tell them and try to degrade them.

I can ssure you that the e-zine is not "copying email stories", as I stated it is written by chameleon keepers based on their experience, many of them have well over a decade of experience breeding several species. Not just one clutch of veileds.

And yes, some of that research "is worded in a way that the average person does not understand" but I read Chris' post and it seems to me that he was trying to explain it in a way that most people could understand. Maybe it was still to complex. And he did offer suggestions for use in a few posts.

No one tried to degrade you. You were provided information and you chose to react to it the way you did. That is not degrading, that is just you getting upset when your methods were questioned.

Originally Posted by dragonflyreptiles

I called breeders who have been breeding for 5-7 years, I didn't just sit at a computer and read pages, I didn't just sit and read outdated info, and outdated books. I talked to them myself and I used my best judgement from all I did read online, and the books and the personal converstaions I had.

I am happy that you spoke with breeders who have 5-7 years of experience. There are alot of people who happen to reproduce veileds that I wouldn't exactly classify as a chameleon breeder. And while first hand information is great, applying new research to existing methods is how we go to the point that we are today.

The bottom line is you can do whatever you want. If you want to use that bulb that way, use it. I couldn't care any less. It is totally up to you as an individual to decide if you want to use the experience provided by people who have had years of experience and tons of success. I can't make you change your mind, and neither can Chris. But to cite one source of information such as a bulb manufacturer or re-seller as good information and then dismiss the findings of a well known chameleon researcher is just foolish. But hey, you can justify it however you need to.

Originally Posted by whitey4311

It is not Chris's way so then it must be wrong but in my observations from having tried all the options he merely talks about I can clearly see what is best.

Can you read? I'm just curious. Where exactly did he say that it was wrong? He said "Now, higher intensity bulbs with longer radience distances are great when the animals are provided a sufficient UV gradient. In the vast majority of enclosures, they are NOT and as a result, use of these high level irradience bulbs is dangerous, regardless of whatever preceived color improvement you might think you see."

and

"The issue I'm discussing is the forced exposure to high UV output bulbs without proper light gradients as in the tank. I simply would recommend avoiding those high UV output bulbs except in extremely large enclosures."

A 20 gallon aquarium is not a large enclosure nor will a distance of 10" provide a gradient of UVB. He never said you have to do things his way. You both got your panties in a wad because you were being questioned.

Those mystic bulbs may be great, I've never used them. I have used many other types of high output bulbs with my chameleons in large enclosures with great success. One thing that I find funny about the mystic bulbs is the fact that when they first were sold the retailer suggested use for normal lighting regimes, ie. 12hrs per day. It was only after the bulbs had been on the market for several weeks did they update their information to reflect the correct usage. Perhaps they had access to some sort of scientific findings suggesting the use of high intesity bulbs for short amounts of time. I wonder where a person could find a study like that?

Originally Posted by JasonDescamps

I am happy that you spoke with breeders who have 5-7 years of experience. There are alot of people who happen to reproduce veileds that I wouldn't exactly classify as a chameleon breeder. And while first hand information is great, applying new research to existing methods is how we go to the point that we are today.

The bottom line is you can do whatever you want. If you want to use that bulb that way, use it. I couldn't care any less. It is totally up to you as an individual to decide if you want to use the experience provided by people who have had years of experience and tons of success. I can't make you change your mind, and neither can Chris. But to cite one source of information such as a bulb manufacturer or re-seller as good information and then dismiss the findings of a well known chameleon researcher is just foolish. But hey, you can justify it however you need to.

Jason,

That is exactly the point, new research has proven that the 2.0 bulb is not satisfactory for UVB output.

My chams are OUTSIDE in natural sunlight, the bulb was on a baby cage for a couple of days as they hatched so if the UVB was too high it was for a few days, extended high UVB can cause problems as stated in many many research articles and there was no extended use. Most of the chams ate on day 2, some on day one and a very few on day 3 so they were in there for less than 3 days.

Im not dismissing anything or anyone, I chose the higher rated bulb as the 5.0 in the research shows to have been the best alternative at the time and was not anywhere close to natural sunlight. I used (not dismissed) that information to make my decision to buy and use a better bulb for that first day or so of life in a starter tank before they were moved to natural sunlight like they need.

Originally Posted by JasonDescamps

You both got your panties in a wad because you were being questioned.

Jason,

Can you read? My panties were not in a wad as you can see if you read this thread:

Originally Posted by dragonflyreptiles

Thanks Chris, I have a Reptisun 10 on them in the house, pretty nice bulb. They are now outside on the nice days in a screen cage so they are getting the real thing too.

Originally Posted by Chris Anderson

Wendy,

Careful, studies have shown that extended exposure to high UVB radience levels are detrimental to reproductivity in chams. That bulb produces more than the standard levels of UVB captive chams are exposed to and in your setup, does not allow for any type of UVB gradient for the babies to naturally regulate their exposure. With the standard 5.0 tube, the radience distance is shorter than in this bulb allowing for better self regulation and the intensity is less minimizing the negative effects of high levels of UV radiation while still providing UVB levels that have shown themselves to be sufficient under most circumstances. Just something to keep in mind. I'm sure in time those bulbs will be used in more of these studies and a better idea of their usefulness and pitfalls with chams will become apparent but at the very least, in the mean time I'd make sure a gradient is available to avoid potential complications.

Chris

Chris clearly states that extended exposure to high UVB radience levels are detrimental to reproductivity in chams and there was no extended use so I have no reason to worry.

Originally Posted by dragonflyreptiles

Thanks for the info, also those pics are over 2 weeks old from when they hatched and I sorted them in the tank for the first few days until they were eating, they are all in screen cages now and outside during the day.

When they were in the tank that few days the light was tilted so that they could get in the area they needed, there is alot of focus towards the left side and alot less on the right from the angle of the bulb. And lots of plants for them to hide under.

Again I thanked Chris for his help and explained that they were outside in natural light.

Not sure where I was questioned about anything, Chris gave me information and I explained my set up (based on his site) and my reason for using newer more suitable UVB and natural sunlight etc.

And again thanks for all of the info from Chris, Jack and Jason, if the bulb was too strong its good that it was only in use for a max of 3 days.