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Go Back   FaunaClassifieds > Reptile & Amphibian - General Discussion Forums > Genetics, Taxonomy, Hybridization

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Genetics, Taxonomy, Hybridization General discussions about the science of genetics as well as the ever changing face of taxonomy. Issues concerning hybridization are welcome here as well.

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Old 10-16-2005, 08:21 PM   #11
crotalusadamanteus
You might have me on the Salmon gene stuff. I have read pretty good arguments to back that it is dominant, but have read just as much to contradict that.
Example. If you breed a wild type with a Salmon.
If it was a dominant trait, it would produce a litter of salmons 100%, just as the wild type gene acts dominant when bred to an albino. You get all wildtypes. Granted, they are all het albino, but the dom gene is expressing itself as normal.
But you don't get all salmons, you get some of each, normals, and hypos. This supports the co-dom theory. Which I still believe it to be due to the way it acts.

Getting interesting though. I could talk this stuff for ever. LOL
But my friend, (lurking over my shoulder right now) still aint convinced. LOL


Ciao,
Rick
 
Old 10-16-2005, 08:22 PM   #12
crotalusadamanteus
Quote:
Originally Posted by M.Dwight
Someone is posting and then deleting their post. That's not nice
how can you tell?
 
Old 10-16-2005, 08:35 PM   #13
crotalusadamanteus
Quote:
Originally Posted by M.Dwight
Salmon is a dominant trait so it can be expressed in its offspring in either the heterozygous or homozygous state.
Before you call me "flat out wrong" I suggest you learn basic genetics
I wont go calling you "flat out wrong". Actually for a 12 year old, I can tell you are very knowledgeable by your manner of expression. But by insinuating that I do not know basic genetics, it would appear that you have let that knowledge go to your young little head.

But I do disagree with that totally. It is common knowledge that when dealing with salmons, that they either express it, or they are normal. There is no Het for salmon. It just has not happened yet. A normal from a litter of salmons does not produce any salmon offspring.
 
Old 10-16-2005, 08:43 PM   #14
Serpwidgets
Quote:
Originally Posted by crotalusadamanteus
You might have me on the Salmon gene stuff. I have read pretty good arguments to back that it is dominant, but have read just as much to contradict that.
Example. If you breed a wild type with a Salmon.
If it was a dominant trait, it would produce a litter of salmons 100%, just as the wild type gene acts dominant when bred to an albino. You get all wildtypes. Granted, they are all het albino, but the dom gene is expressing itself as normal.
But you don't get all salmons, you get some of each, normals, and hypos. This supports the co-dom theory. Which I still believe it to be due to the way it acts.

Getting interesting though. I could talk this stuff for ever. LOL
But my friend, (lurking over my shoulder right now) still aint convinced. LOL


Ciao,
Rick
Two alleles can be paired in one of three ways. Let's use the Salmon mutant (S<sup>S</sup>) and its wild-type counterpart (S<sup>+</sup>) for example. The three possible genotypes at the salmon locus are:

S<sup>+</sup>S<sup>+</sup> Homozygous Wild-type
S<sup>S</sup>S<sup>+</sup> Heterozygous Wild-type and Salmon
S<sup>S</sup>S<sup>S</sup> Homozygous Salmon

If salmon is recessive to wild-type:
S<sup>+</sup>S<sup>+</sup> = Normal phenotype
S<sup>S</sup>S<sup>+</sup> = Normal phenotype
S<sup>S</sup>S<sup>S</sup> = Salmon phenotype

If salmon is dominant to wild-type:
S<sup>+</sup>S<sup>+</sup> = Normal phenotype
S<sup>S</sup>S<sup>+</sup> = Salmon phenotype
S<sup>S</sup>S<sup>S</sup> = Salmon phenotype

If salmon is codominant to wild-type:
S<sup>+</sup>S<sup>+</sup> = Normal phenotype
S<sup>S</sup>S<sup>+</sup> = Intermediate phenotype
S<sup>S</sup>S<sup>S</sup> = Salmon phenotype
OR, as is done in some cases:
S<sup>+</sup>S<sup>+</sup> = Normal phenotype
S<sup>S</sup>S<sup>+</sup> = Salmon phenotype
S<sup>S</sup>S<sup>S</sup> = "Super salmon" phenotype

The simplest question to answer is this:
Can you tell by looking at a snake if it is homozygous or heterozygous Salmon? If yes, the salmon mutant is codominant to wild-type, otherwise it is dominant to wild-type.

The other way to put it is this:
How many phenotypes are there? If there are two phenotypes, the relationship is dominant/recessive. If there are three phenotypes, the relationship is codominant.
 
Old 10-16-2005, 09:09 PM   #15
M.Dwight
Quote:
Originally Posted by crotalusadamanteus
You might have me on the Salmon gene stuff. I have read pretty good arguments to back that it is dominant, but have read just as much to contradict that.
Example. If you breed a wild type with a Salmon.
If it was a dominant trait, it would produce a litter of salmons 100%, just as the wild type gene acts dominant when bred to an albino. You get all wildtypes. Granted, they are all het albino, but the dom gene is expressing itself as normal.
But you don't get all salmons, you get some of each, normals, and hypos. This supports the co-dom theory. Which I still believe it to be due to the way it acts.

Getting interesting though. I could talk this stuff for ever. LOL
But my friend, (lurking over my shoulder right now) still aint convinced. LOL


Ciao,
Rick


Remember me saying a dominant gene was simply a gene that expresses itself in the heterozygous state?
If you breed a albino to a wild type you produce offspring that are all hets for albino. The locus where the albino gene is located will have one copy of the albino gene and one copy of the wild type gene. We can say the wild type gene is dominant over the albino gene because the babies all have the wild type phenotype. The wild type is dominant in its relation to albino.

Now remember that a salmon has one copy of the salmon gene and one copy of the wild type gene. Since a salmon only has one copy of the salmon gene the odds say that about 50% of the babies will inherit a copy of this gene when breed to a wild type. Since salmon expresses itself in the heterozygous form 50% of those babies will be salmons. Understand.

A super salmon is genotype not a phenotype. It is a salmon boa that has two copies of the salmon gene. So, when bred to a wild type all the offspring must inherit one copy of the salmon gene. Since all the babies will have one copy of the salmon gene and one copy of the wild type gene AND since salmon is expressed in the heterozygous form all the babies will have the salmon phenotype.

If you breed a salmon to a super salmon all the babies will have at least one copy of the gene and about 50% of them will also be super (two copies.) But they will all have the salmon phenotype no matter if they have one copy of the salmon gene or two.

If you paid attention you may have noticed that the salmon gene works EXACTLY like the albino gene except that with the albino gene wild type is dominant and with the salmon gene salmon is dominant. It's all just dominant/recessive relationships.
 
Old 10-16-2005, 09:14 PM   #16
M.Dwight
Quote:
Originally Posted by crotalusadamanteus
I wont go calling you "flat out wrong". Actually for a 12 year old, I can tell you are very knowledgeable by your manner of expression. But by insinuating that I do not know basic genetics, it would appear that you have let that knowledge go to your young little head.

But I do disagree with that totally. It is common knowledge that when dealing with salmons, that they either express it, or they are normal. There is no Het for salmon. It just has not happened yet. A normal from a litter of salmons does not produce any salmon offspring.
I wasn't talking about you. Some troll had posted a rude post and then deleted it after I replied to it. I hate it when people do that because it makes the thread confussing. You got mixed up because you thought I was referring to you.
 
Old 10-16-2005, 09:31 PM   #17
M.Dwight
Quote:
Originally Posted by M.Dwight
It is a salmon boa that has two copies of the salmon gene.
0ops
That should have said, "It is a SUPER salmon boa that has two copies of the salmon gene.

Oh yea...I'm not 12 I'm 42 and have been studying genetics for quite a little while
 
Old 10-16-2005, 09:42 PM   #18
M.Dwight
Quote:
Originally Posted by crotalusadamanteus
There is no Het for salmon. It just has not happened yet. A normal from a litter of salmons does not produce any salmon offspring.
Heterozygous simply means that there are two differant genes located at the same locus. Which ever gene is dominant will be expressed in the phenotype. If you read all of my post carefully you would understand.

I see I'm not getting through. Genetics can be hard grasp. I suggest you do a web search on Mendel and his pea plants. This will teach you the basics. It's really not hard once you lay the foundation.
 
Old 10-16-2005, 10:25 PM   #19
M.Dwight
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpwidgets

The simplest question to answer is this:
Can you tell by looking at a snake if it is homozygous or heterozygous Salmon? If yes, the salmon mutant is codominant to wild-type, otherwise it is dominant to wild-type.

The other way to put it is this:
How many phenotypes are there? If there are two phenotypes, the relationship is dominant/recessive. If there are three phenotypes, the relationship is codominant.
*DING* *DING* WE HAVE A WINNER

You are exactly right and this is just what I've been saying too. Glad someone understands

And the answer to this simple question is NO you can't tell by looking at a snake if it is homozygous or heterozygous salmon. So, salmon is dominant to wild type and not codominant.

nuff said

 
Old 10-17-2005, 01:49 AM   #20
Serpwidgets
Thanks, it's good to see an explanation in terms of locus and allele.
 

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