Sunshinedragons

Originally Posted by Valley Dragons

Wow, I guess I just became part of the witch hunt, lol. I can practically see the mob waving their pitchforks at me now...

Despite the words that Mike so kindly put in my mouth, I DID NOT say that it is okay to sell positive babies. Mike, that is an assumption about me that you made all on your own, and several people jumped in on the conversation basing their responses on your post to me (Bill, Ceri, whiskersmom). Please loose the mob mentality and read each post as a seperate entity, and try to see through your own opinions to what is actually written.

I DO NOT think it is okay to start slaughtering positive animals without much more research being done on this virus. Testing your dragons is a good idea in theory (I plan to do it out of curiousity), but at this point, we don't even know if one test is even enough to confirm an infection. And we don't even know if infection causes illness...so why kill your dragons? If we are going to start singleing out and pressuring certain breeders then we should ALL stop selling, because ANY of us could potentially have this virus in our APPRARENTLY HEALTHY stock and not know it. That means you, me, and the rest of the dragon breeders out there. If so and so doctor is right and we have a potentially horrible disease that can wipe out all of our bearded dragons, then why would anyone in their right mind EVER buy or sell a dragon until more research can be done? Tell me, do the rest of you plan to continue selling?

Jamie

Jamie,

My post wasn't aimed at you personally. I stated my opinion that selling positive babies is irresponsible. If you took it personally, I'm sorry. My opinion is just that, my opinion. I made no assumptions as to what you think or what you plan to do with your dragons. I simply used your quote to offer my differing opinion, not to "put words in your mouth". You made the assumption I was targeting you and that's just not true.

I never said you thought it was OK to sell positive babies. Nor did I say anything about you thinking it was OK to slaughter positive babies.

And to answer your question, No, I don't plan to purchase or breed any more dragons until I have the answers I want. If it takes years, so be it. I have some fantastic dragons and they will be just as happy as pets, as they would be as breeders.

Originally Posted by Valley Dragons

Wow, I guess I just became part of the witch hunt, lol. I can practically see the mob waving their pitchforks at me now...

Despite the words that Mike so kindly put in my mouth, I DID NOT say that it is okay to sell positive babies. Mike, that is an assumption about me that you made all on your own, and several people jumped in on the conversation basing their responses on your post to me (Bill, Ceri, whiskersmom). Please loose the mob mentality and read each post as a seperate entity, and try to see through your own opinions to what is actually written.

I DO NOT think it is okay to start slaughtering positive animals without much more research being done on this virus. Testing your dragons is a good idea in theory (I plan to do it out of curiousity), but at this point, we don't even know if one test is even enough to confirm an infection. And we don't even know if infection causes illness...so why kill your dragons? If we are going to start singleing out and pressuring certain breeders then we should ALL stop selling, because ANY of us could potentially have this virus in our APPRARENTLY HEALTHY stock and not know it. That means you, me, and the rest of the dragon breeders out there. If so and so doctor is right and we have a potentially horrible disease that can wipe out all of our bearded dragons, then why would anyone in their right mind EVER buy or sell a dragon until more research can be done? Tell me, do the rest of you plan to continue selling?

Jamie

Jamie,First off no pitch fork in this hand I can only look at this from a Boa owners point, If I sold a boa that had IBD I would have to have each and every one of boas my checked. If say 10 out my 40 came up positive guess what 40 are going to be put down and start all over again,(Which would bite) These diseases come like thieves in the night, and the only way to stop it is find the cure or put down, and seeing as there is no cure Guess what the option is.Selling an animal that may have a potential of killing off other wise healthy ones, is just down right ignorant.

I am not sure if I posted this or not but here is a reply that was sent to me by the tech that tests for andeo. I had asked her some questions.

[quote]
Hello Brenda,

No, your dragon does not have to be dead to be sure. I do fecal
samples for actual viewing on the electron Microscope. It is a test
procedure called negative stain. You can check our our lab
procedures at: http://treefrog.cvm.uiuc.edu Look under methods,
then methods again.

In this procedure, we are looking eyeballs right onto the screen at the
virus at 30-60,000 x magnification, we actually see and identify the
virus.

Positives, are positive, the virus has some pretty distinctive
characteristics. Negatives on the other hand, simply mean we don't see
it, or there is not enough virus to be of concentration to see it by
this method. But yes, if we report out positive, it's positive. What
this method will not tell you is the sub-species type of adeno virus.

Yes, the test is $23.45 per sample, I send you out a kit with
instructions, you send back overnight on ice pack. The fixative is
good for a year in the refrigerator. Once the sample is added, it
should however be shipped right away. Samples can be frozen for
several months. With multiple lizards or with waiting on them all to
defecate, one can freeze the sample in a ziplock bag until ready to
send, then put in fixative, mix and send back.



Now, this is bad timing, though I've been doing a run of dragons for 2
months, but once every 3 years I go on vacation for more than one day
at a time. Next monday I leave for 2 weeks. I'm the only one here in
my small department, and the only one doing the negative stain.


What I can do, is send you a kit, have you freeze the samples until
I get back. I will be back on Monday November 20th. Bad timing,
sorry about this coming out right when I go on vacation, I had asked
for the them for the time 1.5 years ago.


But I can send you a kit if you like, I would need to know your address
and phone number.

Thanks!


Lou Ann

small, unhealthy, sick, or diseased Dragon????

Here is one http://www.sunshinedragons.com/m_003.htm Isn't this an offspring out of one of your females that died recently, Starburst? You love him so much and he is so stress at you facility, your willing to part with him for $300 so he can go to a good home? Any other breeder would call this a rescue and give him to someone just so he had a good home!! but you should also tell them the fact that he might carry adenovirus!

and as for moralities, there are at least 5 recent ones I know of, look on your "breeders" Page - how many of those are still with you? You know there are others, 2 months ago you were told about them and that pathology and test showed it was adenovirus. I can not make people that do not want the headache of dealing with you to talk to you anymore. And Lord knows it is a headache what shows up in Emails, PM's and any other way you can thinly.... look what you have done to whiskersmom, Wendy and Me in private communications. You know the threats and other things you put in them that makes it impossible for us to post without naming and hurting others, we are not going to do it cause you try to force it.

Again, no one wanted to pick on you or single you out Bruce, this thread would not be here and no one would have known you have an adeno positive colony, had you not lied and were not selling off adenovirus positive animals, AFTER you knew... not ones that test clear, not ones that are unknown, but ones that tested positive and to other breeders too, that is what made this thread appear here and why I responded to it!

Why can you not admit you were wrong to do that? Will not do it anymore and will make good on any that have future problems related to this, that you sold AFTER you knew....... Case closed,. Your the one trashing you reputation and showing poor ethics. Do people feel sorry for you and the animals, of course they do. I also do for all the future ones you insist on creating, all for the sake of $$$. That is why you are singled out, no other reason, no ones are doing that, that I know of. No matter what you claim on here

This is so silly. We have more reponses coming to us from people that ask us if we want them to post for us and we tell them no WHATS THE PURPOSE.

>>>>Ask Every Breeder to test! Ask them all If this is such a 'dangerous & Contagious virus . Especially the biggest breeders. Let them all post the results.

Where are the posting with any complaints about sick unhealthy Dragons. Sick unhealthy Dragons. We are not that good. No One is. We keep asking and everyone avoids the fact they don't exist!!

No more " he said she said let them post of any type of sick unhealthy Dragon from us.

. Where are their results. Over 100 people E-mailed us and ask us why we even respond to these post? We will keep responding all year. We have Great healthy Dragons, that every Vet indicates they wish they saw more like these.

We did what we felt was necessary & more than anyone else did.

We are satisfied with the advise we get from the Scientist, and Medical people. We are not going to be pressured by false Rumors or innuendos.

We admit we have had mortalities, Starburst is not an offspring and we are tired of these "admit your wrong" BS. This is about a Virus yet it is becoming about us

We know and expect mortalities in distributing Live animals. We have had them ourselves, yet which breeder, consumer has written that they have dead dragons from us!! Even Sick Dragons from us, anything.

Where are they let alone Adeno tested positive Dragons. Someone write on this post. No more innuendo's or " he said she said" let them post!

>>>Again ask every Breeder to test, many have recieved Dragons from us, and we have recieved from them.

If this is so contagious, we have dealt with many. Shouldn't everyone be testing?

Bruce Kalish

He was not a Dragon that was from anyone of our Breeders. We obtained him and he never matured the way we hoped. It happens. Not every
dragon we obtain developes the way we hope.

We loved him yet he never matured in size,yet we kept him because he was a favorite with a wonderful personality.

We never breed him and sold him as a pet. He did not come from our Stock.

Your groping.

See> more innuedos, and false accusations. Stop already.

Bruce

Originally Posted by CheriS

Here is one http://www.sunshinedragons.com/m_003.htm Isn't this an offspring out of one of your females that died recently, Starburst? You love him so much and he is so stress at you facility, your willing to part with him for $300 so he can go to a good home? Any other breeder would call this a rescue and give him to someone just so he had a good home!! but you should also tell them the fact that he might carry adenovirus!

and as for moralities, there are at least 5 recent ones I know of, look on your "breeders" Page - how many of those are still with you? You know there are others, 2 months ago you were told about them and that pathology and test showed it was adenovirus. I can not make people that do not want the headache of dealing with you to talk to you anymore. And Lord knows it is a headache what shows up in Emails, PM's and any other way you can thinly.... look what you have done to whiskersmom, Wendy and Me in private communications. You know the threats and other things you put in them that makes it impossible for us to post without naming and hurting others, we are not going to do it cause you try to force it.

Again, no one wanted to pick on you or single you out Bruce, this thread would not be here and no one would have known you have an adeno positive colony, had you not lied and were not selling off adenovirus positive animals, AFTER you knew... not ones that test clear, not ones that are unknown, but ones that tested positive and to other breeders too, that is what made this thread appear here and why I responded to it!

Why can you not admit you were wrong to do that? Will not do it anymore and will make good on any that have future problems related to this, that you sold AFTER you knew....... Case closed,. Your the one trashing you reputation and showing poor ethics. Do people feel sorry for you and the animals, of course they do. I also do for all the future ones you insist on creating, all for the sake of $$$. That is why you are singled out, no other reason, no ones are doing that, that I know of. No matter what you claim on here

No hard feelings, Mike. I thought you were referring to my post since you included part of it in your quote. My intention is not to fight with anyone.

And Bill, I'm glad you don't have a pitchfork.

Jamie

Cheri,

Please direct us with any qyestions you want, yet don't make false innuedo's, or accusations to attempt to prove your right.

That is not an offspting of starburst, it is a Dragon we obtained, and not from any of our breeders. It is a he, not a she, and he was beautiful, with a great personality.

He never developed in size. Not everything we keep or obtained becomes a breeder for us. It happens. We finally sold him as a pet.

Again no more innuendos, or He said she said. See what happens. Let those themselves that recieved sick, ill, unhealthy, dragons that died from us post.

Not one post in 17 pages of what the issue is supposed to be>> about sick infected , or dragons we distributed that died of anything.

Yet these are the type of E-mails that keep coming in to us!!!!!! About 100 already!!>

Bruce

Subject: Re: Sunshinedragons Statements on Adenovirus
Date: 11/4/2006 2:02:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time
From: ks…..@v……..net
To: SunshineDragons@aol.com

Sent from the Internet (Details)

Thanks for geting back so soon the dragons you sent too me are doing great ..,………………….
im glad i did get the dragons off you and will love too get more off you down the road......

YOUR A GREAT PERSON TOO WORK WITH... read that some one is trying too make people believe your not a good breeder WITCH IS VERY WRONG!!!!!

YOU ARE ONE OF THE BEST BREEDERS I EVER DEAL WITH..... Just thought you would like too read that lol... please feel free too post what i think... thanks again guys and keep up the great work....
Jim Scott

I want to know why people that I refered to Sunshine dragons in the past are now emailing me with questions about adeno since they cant seem to get a straight anwer from Bruce when they email him. Imagine that, they said Bruce keeps sending long rambling emails that seem to avoid the topic and never ends up answering any of their questions (sort of like the posts made on this thread). The most basic questions that should be answered like....did babies from the cross that they bought come up positive? If no one is emailing Bruce about sick babies how come I am getting emailed from people complaining about sick babies? Granted some of this could be people hearing about adeno and hitting the panic button but I think a straight forward answer from Bruce would keep his customers from emailing me or other breeders looking for honest answers.

Anonymous Third Party quotation
From the Rules for posting on BOI
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ead.php?t=8880

There is no ownership to the accusation being made. Not allowed here. Let you buddy come in here and say it, otherwise it needs to remain unsaid.

**********
Travis, Jamie and others that have asked, there is something set up to pool information, its been going on since 2002 with the support of the herpvetconnection.com website and vets. That is where much of the information has come from about breeders and owners dealing with this ( 28 since 2002 - with ZERO repeat infection rate) There has been a notice to contact us and share information on their site Homepage, in red, in the middle of it for 4 year http://www.herpvetconnection.com/

There are also files and notice on private Exotic vet site discussion boards and forums placed there by the Doctors on HerpVetConnection.com.

I will not take up more time on here with this, but I will post some of that on the discussion forums on here, which already has a few threads going there on it. I think it can answers a lot more questions, but keep in mind, these are owners and their vets observations that dealt with it, not mine or researchers that have studied this, as that is very few or little information.

There is also information on the testing which can be done for under $24 there and who to contact