Adenovirus Questions

Originally Posted by Neverland Dragons

I have spoken purely from my experience. I do whole heartedly believe that the portion of failure to thrives was as a result of adenovirus issues. I bred Herbie and Tiger Lily my first season. They were all large and healthy. Even the smaller ones were larger than others I saw for sale that were the same age. Out of a clutch I had maybe one or two like that. Tiger Lily laid 3 clutches in 2005.

Now, let's go to 2006. I again bred Herbie and Tiger Lily. The first clutch started out fine. I also bred Clyde (positive for adeno) with Maggie. By her second clutch I started to lose babies at about 2 1/2 weeks. It then started to happen to my orange babies (which under the same conditions did fantastic the season before) at 6 weeks. After all of the deaths, it was split pretty evenly between babies that grew and appeared normal and babies that were EXTREMELY underweight and just tiny. All of my bins tested positive for adenovirus via fecal EM. I also had two necropsies performed that listed the cause of death as adenovirus in bearded dragons.

I may not have "years of experience" under my belt. But I learned absolutely everything I could before breeding and carefully chose my breeding stock. I provided good husbandry and these babies were well cared for. Tiger Lily was a little over 2 1/2 years for last years clutches and Maggie was almost 2.

I do believe a little common sense goes a long way. I had three extremes in one clutch, deaths, extreme non thrivers (I would not even consider these runts) and normal appearing dragons. They were all kept under the same husbandry. One common factor in all 3 groups is adenovirus positive results. I absolutely believe it was a factor for all three groups, including the non thirvers. I was fortunate to have very healthy large parents and their offspring from the first season is a testament to that. This is why I KNEW something was wrong when the first baby died. I did not have any deaths in season one, so this put up a red flag for me.

Because of the sheer number of dragons you breed, it makes sense you would see more runts. That does not mean that others breeding small numbers will have the same experience. I am not going to sit back and let you belittle me because I have not been breeding and have "years of experience under my belt." I know what I know and witnessed first hand what this did to each clutch. I believe the virus contributed to the issues with the babies and for you to make that comment seems pretty arrogant to me. I am strictly speaking from my experience. You were not there, you did not see the babies wasting away overnight. You were not in my shoes and can't possibly make a judgement that I do not have enough experience to share what I observed first hand.

Just out of curiosity - and you probably have already stated this in one of the numerous past posts, so be patient with me - who was the vet that decided that the cause of death of your babies was from adenovirus? And also, what other viruses, diseases, bacteria, etc. did this vet test for before he made his diagnoses? I just want to make sure that this vet was not over-eager to jump on the "adenovirus bandwagon". If the vast majority of the dragon population carries this virus, then the obvious conclusion in my mind would be that the majority of the dragon population is - *gasp* thriving while carrying this virus. So...it seems to me that it is a possibility that these babies could have died from something other than adenovirus. If it were me, I would want to know the definite casue of death beyond a shadow of a doubt. Right now the "adenovirus is a plague" argument leaves much to doubt.
We need a broader range of testing done on these dragons before we can draw conclusions about the lethality of this virus in dragons.

Jamie

Tammy,

You told me your original colony from your father, who I know was a name that was a respected breeder and had well cared for dragons for many years, was negative. That when you tried to add in other dragons this year you bought from some "top line breeders", I think it was 12, that 11 of those tested positive and I am pretty sure I have read that also online. Was that incorrect or do I have the information wrong?

If it is incorrent please clear that up now with me... if not, does this not tell you something? If dragons that were not around other dragons for a few years (so in a closed colony) were clear and the positive you got were showing in new dragons brought in the past year. If this is correct, it should tell you that this has spread SINCE your father established his colony or within the past few years. Please do not be taken in by others and start mixing your dragons, you are among a handful of people I know that has some older clear lines that can be a real value to this species in the US.

Yes, we should question the researchers and vets doing test, ALL OF THEM, we should question their controls to know they are accurate. How can you know a positive is really a potgentially harmful positive if you do not know the control was truly positive with a sample from an animal that died as a result of adenovirus and not a sample from a possible benign strain that will never harm anyone? It has been said there may be more than one strain, and some may be benign, correct? What if the control is a benign strain? Will that make a difference?

We should question what a positive really means, all the ranges that a positive can mean. So many have missed something that is EXTREMELY important already. There are some serious unanswered questions out there that can and have been answered by some of those doing tests, that people never knew..... but there are others that need to be answered also. People need to know the whole picture, not just part of it.

A positive on the fecal EM does not mean a bearded dragon has the adenovirus that can be destructive to bearded dragons, it is NOT compared to any control (proven or otherwise) to confirm it is the adenovirus that *can* be destructive to bearded dragons!! They may have another species cells or particles passing though them from ingesting something in their environment and it can not infect them......... NOT them infected with even a reptilian adenovirus, let alone one that can be destructive to bearded dragons if there is more than one strain and others are not harmful. They may have human ones, canine ones, feline ones or avian ones they have ingested and are passing through them. They may have human ones from children or you or Juan Valdez as he picked the greens and coughed over them or the grocery store clerk or cashier who sneezed in their hands and then touched the greens or veggies. Yes, we need to ask questions, yes, until those questions are answered I am suspect of any positive from otherwise healthy appearing bearded dragons or colonies that have had no die offs associated with adenovirus. Questions, some answer, some unanswered, but still questions we should ask. Some times people have to spend so much time defending themselves from the crap, pulled out of the air, the big picture is missed.

How many people reading any of these or hearing about adenovirus from others was told or aware that fecal EM only detects adenoviral cells, it does not confirm or gauge against a control that it is Bearded Dragons adenovirus or even reptilian in nature?? That is a BIG PICTURE matter that is ignored

Vicki, I am stating from my experience this seemed to be the case. I am not speaking for everyone. Whether it was directed specifically at me or not, my specific situation fell within your statement, so I responded. I know that not all dragons failing to thrive is adeno related and there are failure to thrive for other reasons. But in my case, I do believe it was directly related to them having adenovirus. That was my experience.

Valley Dragons- It was not a vet that said adenovirus was a cause of death, but the state lab that performed the necropsies. They did advanced studies on the livers of the babies. I do believe that there was a small amount of trichonomas found in one stool sample, but my vet said it would not make a difference. Of all the bins I tested only two came back with corona like particles in addition to adeno like particles. I submitted roughly 50 bin samples.

So, does adenovirus allow other opportunistic bacteria, virus and parasites to infect a dragon? Probably, but by the same token, if they did not have adenovirus to begin with, would it have the same impact on their system? I doubt it.

I know I have made "numerous posts", but this is important and if I have to keep going back and forth so be it. I am not breeding anymore, but I still feel this is worth bringing attention to. I am not the only breeder that has had babies die. When I had my necropsies done I told the vet that my colony was large and healthy and I did not believe it was adenovirus. I was wrong. You can *gasp* all you want, but it will be interesting to see where this is in 5 years. I do not believe that the majority of dragons had this 5 or 10 years ago. So, how was it spread to such a large number of dragons? Should we just say forget it and let the ones that survive live and hope they build an immunity to it? There is no guarantee that will ever happen. If two adeno positive dragons are bred there is a chance that the babies can become infected and some may die. I do not think it is o.k. at all, but that is just my opinion.

Originally Posted by Dachiu

I am happy that there is an opportunity for further study of the fecal samples being submitted. My hope is that those which test positive for adenovirus on an EM will go on to the PCR for further identification and classification. Even if studies are not being actively performed at this time - the data can still be processed and documented for future use. I understand that there are time & funding constraints and priorities to consider when it comes to a research project of this magnitude and I am not presuming that Dr. Jacobson and his team are even willing to do the studies.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ad.php?t=89703

Cheri, did we miss something here? You are now saying what we stated in November... and acting like it is headline news.

Kinda looks like plagerism.
Jim

I just wanted to post this information that was forwarded from JimD. His veterinarian from Calgary Avian and Exotic Pet Clinic took time to do some research and offer this information.

No need for the angry face...do look at the date on that email..things change rapidly as I have explained on a public forum recently. Your information on the date of that email was correct.

Right, I purchased dragons from 12 breeders, the total positives now on those 12 dragons are 12...that citrus subadult did test positive.

We did not put these animals in our colony..they were in quarantine.

So, they did not mingle with the dragons we already had. We began testing dragons we already had after this, shortly after this....What came back neg initially were not just pops but a few other dragons from a few from other breeders from CA, PA and NJ as I mentioned in my email to you months ago... and everything else tested was positive, we did have animals we bred ourselves go positive. I emailed you months ago that some are not remaining negative too, I had to call the people who bought babies from 2006 from these...I emailed this to you and you told me you were sorry to hear this...so dont forget about that email there...it is now April and things change quick. .....so after it is all said and done we have a few dragons that did not shed viral cells when we pulled thier fecal..that is how I am going to word this because I am so disgusted.

The dragons that were negative can go positive real quick on you...I think I told you I had to go throw out eggs..not only that but had to pull up all my paypals and get email address contacting those people that bought babies from those guys last year..the what all...it was disgusting. All contacted says the babies are huge and fine though.

So, I don't think I spread this to my guys,with those 12, I think AV was here, brought it in a year or two ago or it was here always...still I should have seen some ick happen with the progeny...they were good. It is unrealistic to think otherwise...I was really carefull and wear gloves there in the quarantine..different room. I just can't blame those newbies on our dragons coming with positive tests, a few of those breeders of newbies were downright surprised..they never had problems.

I don't know but somebody needs to get to the bottom of this. Other people saying they had negative tests on most of their animals and such ....no way man.....some told you this and they were not forthright...so I thought I was different, I was the one with positive animals coming back and most everyone else was clear, all of those people that lied about testing..you put people in position of making choices.....but we never had a problem, not ever.

We did do some EM test and retest...even did one pos PCR that was neg on EM and a few baby bins by EM method....at this time I can say the EM results yield a higher percentage of negatives.....I am very, very tired of testing and all the inconsistencies......I have said it before and I believe it, it is widespread.....I see that most dragons tested have it........we need to find out if it truly causes problems......if we have had it all along ...the dragons didn't tell me.

Where do I start?

Let me first say I was wrong, not only wrong, but dead wrong on this. I have called both Denise and Tere, I gave both of them an apology, what happen here in the last few days is far from fact. IMO Denise is a great person, also I do not know how anyone could think anything but this about her. Tere is also one super nice person.

I have been deceived about this whole thing, I could start pointing fingers, I was misinformed from the start on this issue. However, when I hit the submit button it was me that posted.

Vickie, is there a date on that information? I believe I read the very same article yesterday or the day before, and it was a few years old? And with most of the information coming from birds and mammals, I didn't believe that all of it could be considered completely accurate for reptiles, as different strains of viruses can act much differently.

Originally Posted by varnyard

Where do I start?

Let me first say I was wrong, not only wrong, but dead wrong on this. I have called both Denise and Tere, I gave both of them an apology, what happen here in the last few days is far from fact. IMO Denise is a great person, also I do not know how anyone could think anything but this about her. Tere is also one super nice person.

I have been deceived about this whole thing, I could start pointing fingers, I was misinformed from the start on this issue. However, when I hit the submit button it was me that posted.

Thank you Bobby.