Adenovirus Questions

Tammy,

I think you confused some of the words above cause you said I would not accept stats from necropsy labs, I would be pure silly....most dragons will show positive for adeno...Florida has stated this, you will see this in that long 15 pg document they are finishing up...so you will see adeno in most dragons on the necropsy that makes no sense, it is late so it could be me

Again, there are so many other questions that need answers even about the testing, stats, range of testing.

I get my information from Dr. Stacey and he knows of no other methods besides fecal PCR and the EM.
This really surprises me he would say this, are you sure? The EM and PRC are failry new, and there are questions about what a positive means from those test, prior, this was the only way to determine if an animal had adenovirus and it was sick due to it.

Even The Merck Veterinary Manual mentions it for testing and Wendy linked to and pasted thieir content on it here. Just put him adeno bearded dragon liver biospy and you will get several sources for it, it was very common

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...9&page=44&pp=5

Cheri,

Yes, he did say that..on live animals...I do not want a liver biopsy. The EM and PCR for live animals.

Cheri, Where are those other labs that do this other testing you mentioned? If there are 2 more accurate tests than what I have been using ...then I certainly want to do that. Can you provide me with that information?

Tammy,

A liver bio can be done on a live animal, it use to be the ONLY way to determine if a bearded dragon had an adenovirus that was affecting it so I would think that was also detecting one that was having a negative affect on the animal, not a benign in case there is more than one strain. No other testing tells you if the dragon has actually got a type that may be affecting it and also that bio will look at other possibilities that may be making arn animal sick. That is also usually done with a blood draw also, this is in all vet medical books and was the common way to detect adeno PRIOR to PRC or EM which is fairyly recernt, within the last few years.

Again, I can not imagine that DR Stacey told you there was no other way but PRC and EM, which now it seems can not detect strains that may cause illness..... if there is more than one. My understanding is that needs to be researched and had not been done yet, so no one can answer it.

When I first started learning about adenovirus, this on a live and a necropsy on a dead animal was the only way PRC and EM came much later and any lab could do this. If further studies were needed, they sent it out to a contacted lab

Hi Everyone.
I've been watching this thread with interest. I've also spoken with Tammy and found her to be completely honest, nice and incredibly knowledgeable, we sure need a lot more people like her.
I'd like to toss my impressions out and see if we can really have a dialog about it without the arguments that are normally associated with this virus. Ok? If I'm wrong, I want to know it, but I don't want to start another flame fest.

We know there is a problem, how big of a problem is an unknown at this point. We have animals that test positive for AV and are still beautiful, healthy, thriving animals.
We have animals that are AV positive that aren't as healthy, they fail to thrive and are sickly.
We have high clutch mortality on SOME positive dragons.
We have negative animals that may or may not have been exposed to infected animals, and continue to test negative, but we are unsure if they will continue to test this way, and what happens with an animal that tests negative NOW, tests negative after breeding, but a year down the line tests positive with no additional exposure to this virus? That's a big question.
Some negative animals are exposed daily to positive animals and NEVER get AV. This opens a bigger question as to natural immunity.

My take on this issue changes as I get more information. Right now, I think we all need to keep an open mind and be willing to accept that there may be in fact harmless strains of AV that might make a dragon test positive, but there are no die offs related to that animal.

The question has to be, as a community, how do we come together and participate to contribute to the research when so much of what is important here can ONLY be determined by breeder honesty?

My personal opinion is this:
Negative animals should be separated and protected and TESTED regularly for any change in status. A negative test once doesn't really tell you anything, but repeated negative testing does. If you have an animal in your care that tests negative for a couple years, then suddenly tests positive with NO ADDITIONAL exposure, that information should be tracked and studied.
Additionally, negative animals that are housed with positive dragons for years without any issues and continue to test negative can also tell us a lot. If this virus spreads as aggressively as everyone believes, what is so unique about these animals?
I have a feeling that answer can be found with additional research. I, for example, was born with a natural immunity to Hepatitis B. I never knew it. I worked as a social worker for a long time, and one day I was directly exposed to blood from a Heb B positive person. I had to go through testing, and the doctor asked me if I had a Hep B shot and I said no, and he said that it appeared I had because my body was showing natural antibodies for Hep B, as does about 10% of the population. We're simply born immune.
If there are Bearded Dragons born immune for some reason to AV, I can't even begin to tell you how big a thing that could be. As I was born immune from Hep B, I managed to pass that natural immunity to 3 of my 4 biological children.

Animals that test positive and thrive anyway, I have no issues at all with those animals being bred and sold, as LONG as people are honest about it. I know that may not be popular with some people, but as long as there are no answers, its a bit hard to expect people to be honest if they are going to be penalized for it. We need to seriously watch these animals are track their clutch mortality rates and the growth rates of their offspring, not to mention that testing from these animals might indeed help to isolate viral strains that are not causing any harm.

Animals that test positive that don't thrive, are under-sized, have health issues at ANY point in their lives, including repeated parasitic overloads, or that come from or have clutches with high mortality rates should NEVER, EVER be bred. That's why breeders need to be honest AND comply to at least some sort of minimum standards for breeding. If not, we'll see BD's head in the same direction as pure bred dogs with genetic defects and health issues so entrenched in the animals that the whole breed is suspect.
In a hobby so dependent right now on the honor of breeders, Fauna and forums like it can be a big help in getting answers, but we all have to be willing to LISTEN. The next few years are going to be critical, and we need people willing to fight the good fight.
Tammy, if you read this, I'm sorry I had to cut the conversation short yesterday and I hope we can continue it at your convenience. My phone kept me busy until pretty late last night, but I believe that you're one of the most knowledgeable people in this industry, and I'm very interested in anything you have to say. At this point, you're probably one of the ONLY people in this industry I wouldn't hesitate to do business with because of your straight forward and honest attitude. Hats off to you.

Denise, I agree with you. Testing is showing that adenovirus does not kill all dragons or does not make them all sick. There are way too many dragons testing positive that are thriving and living healthy lives.

Hopefully everyone can agree on a place to start and conduct themselves in an honest straight forth manner. This is really only the beginning and hopefully they will figure out the factors that cause some dragons to die off and be sickly while others show no symptoms. I think that is going to be key in getting a better understanding of this virus.

Originally Posted by Neverland Dragons

Denise, I agree with you. Testing is showing that adenovirus does not kill all dragons or does not make them all sick. There are way too many dragons testing positive that are thriving and living healthy lives.

Hopefully everyone can agree on a place to start and conduct themselves in an honest straight forth manner. This is really only the beginning and hopefully they will figure out the factors that cause some dragons to die off and be sickly while others show no symptoms. I think that is going to be key in getting a better understanding of this virus.

This is as good as anyplace to start. How many people right now have positive dragons in their collection and what is the health status of those animals.
If you have positive animals, track their health like you would a baby. Keep track of their growth, increases and decreases in appetite, any illnesses or parasitic problems.
If you bred your positive dragon before you were aware there was an issue and you have clutch statistics on mortality, slow growth rates or any other information, you can compile that information too.
If you have positive and negative dragons in your collection and have observed differences in clutch mortality between the two, that's really important.
Negative results should be closely tracked.

If what we want is an informational database, I'd be more than willing to compile it from information that people voluntarly provide and publicly post it on my own website so it can be shared, or just attach a forum to my website where no flaming is allowed, but simply so people can openly share their own experiences in dealing with their pets or colonies, and can open up their own discussion threads to post as much information coming out of their colonies and breeding projects. I haven't asked, but I'm pretty sure that Cheri would do the same thing.

"I know some have clear dragons beyond question as they had test more accurate than what is being stated here. PCR, EM, via blood and feces are not the only way to know and there are 2 much more accurate test that are being ignore but have many negative results".

I am not ignoring anything but, why is this information secret...God in great heaven, can't I get some info from someone, the vet doesn't have it for me, Florida doesn't have it for me....you say you do but you won't give it to me. I am looking for these places with more accurate testing than what I have been doing and trying to find these people that have completed testing this way...ghost town.

Where are they doing this testing so that I can get these babies tested this way?

Originally Posted by CheriS

Tammy,

A liver bio can be done on a live animal, it use to be the ONLY way to determine if a bearded dragon had an adenovirus that was affecting it so I would think that was also detecting one that was having a negative affect on the animal, not a benign in case there is more than one strain. No other testing tells you if the dragon has actually got a type that may be affecting it and also that bio will look at other possibilities that may be making arn animal sick. That is also usually done with a blood draw also, this is in all vet medical books and was the common way to detect adeno PRIOR to PRC or EM which is fairyly recernt, within the last few years.

Again, I can not imagine that DR Stacey told you there was no other way but PRC and EM, which now it seems can not detect strains that may cause illness..... if there is more than one. My understanding is that needs to be researched and had not been done yet, so no one can answer it.

When I first started learning about adenovirus, this on a live and a necropsy on a dead animal was the only way PRC and EM came much later and any lab could do this. If further studies were needed, they sent it out to a contacted lab

Where can you get a live liver biopsy done? is this something that any good herp vet can do? what is the risk to the animal? Does a beardie have to be showing clinical symptoms in order for the test to be accurate?
I'm not sure I'd be willing to subject my babies to invasive procedures, but it would be nice to know if there was any one test that was 100% accurate.

no, no..I don't like liver biopsy on a live animal...that makes me green, I don't want to know how they even do it...but I hear there are 2 more accurate tests than the way I have been testing.

Cheri, please tell me what are these tests that are more accurate and where can I get my kits ordered? Or can you give me the name of the vet that has this information? I looked all day today and made calls, Cornell doesn't know, Davis doesn't know.

Tammy, you are not alone in this. I have been trying to get these answers for like a week now. I can't even get my vet on the phone now! I call her everyday and leave messages with reception, and then I sit here sick in bed all day waiting for a call and I never get it. It's just sad because people want to test, but we are not being given the same opportunity to do so. I don't know if it is the virus in me but I am about fed up with the whole subject and trying to find places to test. If you ever do get an answer where we can get a good accurate test run, please let me know. OK, I have lost the ability to form a coherent thought now, so I am going to stop here and try another time when my brain is functioning.