Smoothies

Hello Alessandro,

Thanks for giving more information on this.
My main question is don't you think you should wait a bit longer to introduce them to the US due to the fact we have a huge problem with Adenovirus over here?
I worry about them getting into the wrong hands of irresponsible people over here who don't even properly care for normal bearded dragons, let alone a more specialized dragon. What do we do when that happens?
If they are more delicate than normal bearded dragons, it could leave them vulnerable to adenovirus, or other health related problems?
Those are my primary concerns, as I know & understand that everyone likes something different, but I don't want to weaken our already weakened genepool over here anymore than it already it.
So you are saying that they are at least 3 generations apart before you breed them back in?

Tracie

first of all let me tell you that i will also discuss on breeding result with silk and leath but i want to make thing clear so i will do it at the end. i hope this first part is clear and answering the question we can go ahead.

Let answer some question.
Wendi: at the moment there is a certain amount of genetic distance between the animals to arrive to silkback but it is still small. As I said this is the starting point and lot of work need to be done. To see and detect how would act this gene we went over to find the result. Now that we know which is the result, the work will be to out cross several time the two lines and create a group of leather and silkback with a big “variety” of gentic. It is for that reason that I was pleased to share this project with dachiu, in this way we can work in two parallel way to achieve the best result in a shorter time. We have already planned to cross the silkback and the leatherback with different animals and then exchange again the animals in this way there should be a big increase in the genetic pool. This is the way it is done with all the genetic morph, most of the morph originates from one single animal.

To everybody: since few years ago, with pogona there was only a big work of SELECTING BREEDING. This mean that, even starting from a small group of animals showing some colour (surely not like today) that they were coming from a specific place, everybody was looking for the most coloured animals. Everybody was selecting the most coloured animals in clutch and then try again to breed them to enhance the colour. THESE PROCEEDINGS CAUSED IMBREEDING DEPRESSION, coloured bearded dragon are much more imbred than genetic morph. The difference with genetic morph is that they are all casual mutation and then there is a big work of out crossing to create a healthy viable population.

about the health of silkback: most of you are concerned with health problem with silk...but at the moment they don't seems to me different from another pogona, they aren't more vulnerable than the other. i would like to discuss this later in the husbandry section, can you keep your question for that section?

crazydude: yes silkback are mutant (if you want to call in this way all the animal which show a genetic mutation), like albinos geckoes or like leucistic ball python, or like salmon boa, or other mutation.

crazydude: let say you get 1 animal, if you cross with an unrelated animal only 50% of the genetic pool will be present in the babies, take one baby and breed with another unrelated animals, in the new born there will be 25%, if you cross again you will have 12% (with the other 88% being completely different). everytime you keep part of the genetic pool of the ancestors but you add new genes. if you consider a group of 6 (which is a small group) if for every baby you do the same hystory after 3 generation there will be a big gentic differnce. is not me who say that but reputable genetic researcher who study what is called "viable population". this is the work we have planned to do with dachiu


About ADENOVIRUS: I think I am here to try to help everybody understand the background of silkback, adenovirus is another question which concern the health of our animals. I have made some discussion with reputable vet and I do have my opinion but I do not think this is the subject of this thread. if someone is interested in my opiion I will put it in the right thread. Is not that I do not want to answer but I think it would only create confusion in such a difficult and big discussion.

always available for more question, i am wriing down the details of the husbandry....it take time to be understandable....sorry for that
alessandro

to the responsable f the forum:
as is not my language i always do lot of mistake, and i see them always after i put my replay on. how can i edit my messages???
thank for the answer
alessandro

Alessandro,thank you for taking the time to explain all this to us even though the last 42 pages have been kinda harsh.I think alot of the frustrations have to do with Dachiu's character, many people have lost faith in them because of the adenovirus situation and their attempt to cover it up in order to continue making money. Like you said though, that discussion is not for this thread but I just wanted to help you understand some of the anger here. As for the editing,I may be wrong but i think you have to be a member of a certain amount of posts or you need to be a moderater to edit. You are doing great with your posts When you said " there is a certain amount of genetic distance between the animals to arrive to silkback but it is still small" how much of a distance do you mean? I am concerned about this statement. Thank you.

I'm sorry if the word mutant sounds mean, I guess I just had poor word choice. I was referring to the fact its a genetic mutation. I guess I just don't consider Albino geckos or Leuscistic ball pythons or salmon boas a mutation because it doesn't affect there daily life which in a way it affects silkbacks. I'm looking forward to hearing about there husbandry.

And I'm sorry you had to come into a hostile enviorment, as puppytoes said Dachiu's Character has more than came into question multiple times.

Do you mind if i ask a few more questions that relates to husbandry?

With less basking time do they ever not digest there food?
Have you ever had MBD or calcium problems with silkbacks?
If you try to breed them or if you have do you worry about their neck tearing?


Thanks for your time and effort coming over here and helping us understand silkback dragons and what you have done to create them

hy everybody

puppytoes: as i told you there is a distance but i am aware that it is a small distance...it's a new thing and i do have 4 generation now. i have tested the genetic of silkback in the third generation of leatherback. but as i said before this was done to test it!!!!! now, as a responsible keeper, i am outcrossing them (and dachiu is doing the same things) to create lines which are completely unrelated to their progenitors. i understand your concerning but you need to give me time....this year each of the leatherback is crossed with a different animal...they are already healthy animals and we are working to introduce in them the most variable genetic. if you ahve any suggestion to improve more their genetic pool i will be glad to know it.

"I'm sorry if the word mutant sounds mean, I guess I just had poor word choice. I was referring to the fact its a genetic mutation. I guess I just don't consider Albino geckos or Leuscistic ball pythons or salmon boas a mutation because it doesn't affect there daily life which in a way it affects silkbacks"

crazydude, first of all i think that genetic mutation like albino gecko will affect their lifestyle but it is really reduced to our eyes because they do not need a large amount of uvb.....but....what about with albino iguana or albino pogona??? as far as i know there is still lot of work to do to say that this situation does not affect their life style. if we consider ball python some of the mutation (starting from albino's) lead to animals with a poor growth rate, do you think these mutation doesn't affect their daily life????


"With less basking time do they ever not digest there food?
Have you ever had MBD or calcium problems with silkbacks?
If you try to breed them or if you have do you worry about their neck tearing?"

crazidude you are claiming things that they are not true... do i said they have less basking time??? as i said i will explain exactly everything inside the husbandry section but i can anticipate that you will not find so many differences comparing to the care of a normal bearded dragon.

always available
alessandro

Originally Posted by alessandro

About ADENOVIRUS: I think I am here to try to help everybody understand the background of silkback, adenovirus is another question which concern the health of our animals. I have made some discussion with reputable vet and I do have my opinion but I do not think this is the subject of this thread. if someone is interested in my opiion I will put it in the right thread. Is not that I do not want to answer but I think it would only create confusion in such a difficult and big discussion.

Yes, adenovirus is a heated subject here in the states. It would be interesting to hear your views on the subject. Maybe when you are done with this thread and have answered all the questions, you could tell us what is happening with AV in your part of the world and how you breeders are approaching the issue. Thank you so much for taking the time to educate us.

Alessandro, are there any specific genetic defects or variables that could cause problems with silkbacks? Especially because there was a certain amount of inbreeding to create the line? I guess I am trying find out if with this mutation there could be inherent genetic problems or difficulties. Thank you.

Wendy

wendi: at the moment they do not have any problem they grow well and they do not show any sign of problem....i cannot tell you more because the animal are really well and i do not find any problem. all the leatherback produce viable eggs with a rate of 20 (media) in each clutch. for the european standard is the standard. same thing with silkback.
alessandro

Thanks. I hope that it holds true and remains a healthy line for you. I have one more question. Have you seen any problems sometimes associated with breeding closely related dragons, like crooked tails or spines? I am just curious.

Wendy