Smoothies

alessandro, could I ask if you've bred the silkbacks yet? Or are they too young? I'd be interested in both how they fare in breeding activity, and also look forward to the husbadry post you mentioned.
I understand co-dom traits(from my ball pythons) and I can't see that the line would be considered "inbred" if you did all that outcrossing. If the dragon is able to live in close to normal circumtances, and reproduce, then what would be the issues with it? I'm assuming that none have the AV(which should be a seperate subject).
Wolfy

to me is not happened because i keep record of all my animals and even if i buy new animals from the same breeder i always breed them with unrelated ones. it takes more time to have a result but then i don't have problem. but i have talked to several vet that have several record. in italy there are several people who buy 2 brothers and the next year they try to brred them. and then there are problems...tail angled, few egg, poor fertility rate....i receive every year several call asking me why....there are lot of people who start with bearded dragon wth a really poor knowledge.
alessandro

O.K. Thanks. I was under the impression that there was a certain amount of inbreeding to create the line, so that is why I asked. That is great that you did not see any deformities. I appreciate your time and directness with answering the questions.

Hello Alessandro,

I am looking forward to hearing your information on the husbandry. It was to our thinking that they could not bask at the temperatures that the normal bearded dragons, could, etc, due to their lack of scales. We just need confirmation of care, & how to determine the best UVB lighting for them, without harming them.
That is good news you have not had any physical deformities as of currently. I as well, as interested to know if they would inherit any type of genetic problems too, since this is a genetic mutation that is not normally in most bearded dragons. It definitely would be wise to strengthen those lines because taking a non-normal mutation which could cause problems would complicate things alot.
The dragons here in the US already have alot of problems as it is, & we need to strengthen the genepool here.
Thank you for answering our questions. We all appreciate it.

Tracie

"With less basking time do they ever not digest there food?
Have you ever had MBD or calcium problems with silkbacks?
If you try to breed them or if you have do you worry about their neck tearing?"

"crazidude you are claiming things that they are not true... do i said they have less basking time??? as i said i will explain exactly everything inside the husbandry section but i can anticipate that you will not find so many differences comparing to the care of a normal bearded dragon."


Sorry Alessandro I was going off Dachiu's site on there care. I'm sure you have the link but ill post it again anyways, I don't want to copy and paste what they said because I don't know how to correctly quote it.
http://www.dachiu.com/projects.html

Originally we were talking about Dachiu in terms of silkbacks until you came and started answering questions. So I am looking forward to hearing more.

Just one last question for any breeder or person that knows then I'm done until the husbandry part.

With line/inbreeding is there any underling problems that are not physical and are not noticed right away like more susceptibility to parasites or anything that you can not tell from just looking at them?

Thanks again for your time.

ok here it is the section on husbandry, i hope it will be clear, but first i want to answer again to crazidude
"With line/inbreeding is there any underling problems that are not physical and are not noticed right away like more susceptibility to parasites or anything that you can not tell from just looking at them?"
such a thing should not be a problem with silkback but with every reptiles, i think you are triing to find the bad thing in any way you can. i suppose you haven't never buyied two animals from the same breeder unless he assured you that they were completely unrelated. of course i am only joking , that was to let you understand that, and i suppose lot of people, when i have bought my first pair of bearded dragon i wasn't aware of the imbreeding problem. i have bought a trio and then i bred them, and i have sold the babies . only later with the increase of knowledge i have understood what could be the problem and i went over to buy another trio to cross with the other, and that was my start as a breeder (15 years ago). but inbreeding problem, i have read somewhere, they will be visible anly after 3 or 4 generation (i need to find this paper, take it not for sure).


Husbandry
I normally keep the silkback like I keep my other dragon. Here is what I do. I normally keep my animals in a way they could go over the lamp to heat them up but I always give them a place where the temp is lower. On EACH cage there is a zoomed uvb 5.0. I DO HAVE LOT OF ATTENTION THAT THE CAGE ARE WELL VENTILATED. I keep babies in a box which is 50 x 30 the spot being in the first third, I keep the adult separate from female and they are all in cages 90x70x46 (cm not inches), the spot in the first third. In each cage there is one male OR 2 female. It is for that reason that I cannot keep too many animals and for that reason I shared the project with dachiu. When is breeding time I move the female that I want to breed n the cage of the male. Over the spot I do have 34 degree with a thermostat. On the other side there is a temp during the day that range from 27 to 30. in the night I switch off everything, the temp going slowly to 20-22.
Now…what is changed with silkback??
Nothing, the only thing I noticed is that they reach quicker the right body temp. so for the babies I sprayed them instead of one time x day, 2 times per day not because they need it but because I am scared they get dehidratated, and I want to prevent instead of treat it. The adult I do not spray them but I give them always available fresh water (which they don’t use that much…..but…just in case). It is important for them to have a place with lower temp….then…. they are animals and they exactly know where they should go….THEY TERMOREGULATE BY THEMSELVES. They eat like the other and the do shit like the other (lot of work to do). I feed them with roaches, cricket, mealworm, and of course vegetable.
This year I have tried to put them on the sun, and it is the same thing….when they reach the right temp they move to a place with no sun. I have tested them with “normal” pogona and the result was just that the silkback move first in search of food!!!!
About the skin they do not have any problem, it is not fragile…so I do not do anything special. I only noticed that they go on shedding more time.
As far as I know I think dachiu are doing the same thing I am doing.

If I haven’t answer to all the question I will be glad to do it. I am starting to write down my personal observation on breeding silkback. So about this section please be patient.
alessandro

Allessandro,

Thank you for taking the time to come here and end some of the speculation regarding your silkbacks. Unfortunately some people like to assume the worst about a situation, before they even take time to do any real research. It sounds to me like you are a caring and responsible breeder. I look forward to hearing more about your silkback project in the future.

Jamie

Alessandro, I am guessing part of the reason that people are so concerned about modified husbandry is because of Dachiu's description of the silkback on her page. It makes it sound like they do require special care. Sometimes a little information is dangerous because people by nature try to fill in the blanks. Thank you for coming and providing complete info. I did have one more question that came to mind. How many years has it been since you hatched out your first silkback and how many generations have been produced since? Thank you.

Wendy

Hello Alessandro. I have a few observations in regards to the info you provided on the silkback's husbandry. You have to remember that we are comparing it to our husbandry practices here in the U.S. For the most part, people try and keep hatchlings and juveniles at 105-110 degrees Fahrenheit. You stated that you keep them the same as your other bearded dragons, which is at 34 degrees Celsius on the basking spot. This converts over to 93.2 degrees Fahrenheit. That is substantially lower than what most keepers have their basking spots here. Our equivalent would be around 40-43 degrees Celsius. The adults are kept at closer to 100 degrees Fahrenheit, give or take a few degrees. (38 degrees Celsius). So, while there are not differences in your husbandry practices between a regular dragon and silkbacks, that would not be the case here in the U.S.

I also wanted to address the UVB. Many keepers use either 10.0 fluorescents or MVB's, which give out a significantly higher amount of UVB. Would the increased UVB have a negative impact on the silkback's skin? For example, I have a Reptile UV Mega ray MVB and the reading on my uvb meter is about 148 at the point where my dragon is receiving the uvb rays. They do well with this. It is also important to know how far the silkbacks are from the uvb source. According to the manufacturer of the 5.0, they should be 10-12 inches, or 10-25 cms from the uvb source. The uvb they receive is minimal. Again, this is very different than what many keepers and breeders practice in the U.S.

I also had a question regarding the humidity. I had heard that electricity is very expensive in Italy and air conditioning is not very common. So, I was wondering if you have air conditioning where the silkbacks are kept? If not, do you live in a humid region? Most of us here have air conditioning, so even in places where it is very humid (like NC & AR), the dragons habitat is usually kept at a much lower humidity level. So, I was wondering what the humidity level is in the silckbacks enclosures.

I know I asked a lot of questions, but I do think it is important to make the comparison of the silkback's husbandry with the general husbandry practices of dragons in the U.S. There are varying opinions on it, but I just wanted to point out that there are several differences between your recommended husbandry for silkbacks and regular bearded dragons.

On a different note. I would like to know in concrete terms, how closely related the dragons were that created the silkback mutation. You have implied they were closely related, but I was wondering to what degree? Were they siblings? I am trying to get a grasp on this and also would really like to know how long ago the mutation occurred and how many generations have passed. Were the leather backs that originally created the silkbacks closely related? If so, is it possible this mutation is a result of inbreeding and not a co-dominant gene? Has it had time to be proven out as a co-dominant trait?

Alessandro, you have been great in answering questions and providing information. I appreciate your honesty and willingness to come here and help us understand more about silkback dragons. I look forward to your answers of the questions I posed above. Thank you.

Wendy

Let’s start…..it will be long
“You have to remember that we are comparing it to our husbandry practices here in the U.S. For the most part, people try and keep hatchlings and juveniles at 105-110 degrees Fahrenheit. You stated that you keep them the same as your other bearded dragons, which is at 34 degrees Celsius on the basking spot. This converts over to 93.2 degrees Fahrenheit. That is substantially lower than what most keepers have their basking spots here. Our equivalent would be around 40-43 degrees Celsius. The adults are kept at closer to 100 degrees Fahrenheit, give or take a few degrees. (38 degrees Celsius). So, while there are not differences in your husbandry practices between a regular dragon and silkbacks, that would not be the case here in the U.S.”
Yes but as far as I now the temp you mentioned in usa are done to massimize growth rate, as a matter of fact in this way bearded dragon reach adult size in 6 months. Things like that are done to be able to have babies grow quickly to be sold as soon as you can. But from some research in Australia bearded dragon reach their sexual maturity in 1-2 year. This does seems to me natural!!!!!! And my animals need at least one year to be young adult and sometimes I do wait 2 year until I breed them….
Second point: you are making confusion with temp of the environment and body temp. there are lot of research on several species that they reach a body temp higher than the one of the ambient (for example vipera kaznakovi who live near Siberia and it can reach really high body temp, or Mediterranean tortoises that they are still active in October even if the temp is low, they just need a bit of sun to increase body temp…if you want I have thousand of example). The “lower” basking temp does not mean that they do not reach the right temp but they ay take more time. The high temp some usa breeder keep (I know some who don’t do that) is because in this way the animals reach the right body temp first and then they can give food more times (we talk about 4-6 times per day). BUT these breeder told me that they need to spray the animals several times per day to avoid overheating and dehidratation….YOU NEED TO SAY THE WHOLE STORY NOT PART OF IT

”I also wanted to address the UVB. Many keepers use either 10.0 fluorescents or MVB's, which give out a significantly higher amount of UVB. Would the increased UVB have a negative impact on the silkback's skin? For example, I have a Reptile UV Mega ray MVB and the reading on my uvb meter is about 148 at the point where my dragon is receiving the uvb rays. They do well with this”
HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT?? put me fact on it, not presuming it.

“ It is also important to know how far the silkbacks are from the uvb source. According to the manufacturer of the 5.0, they should be 10-12 inches, or 10-25 cms from the uvb source. The uvb they receive is minimal. Again, this is very different than what many keepers and breeders practice in the U.S.”
First of all my 5.0 lamp are 12 cm over the animals for 14 hour. Second of all there is a currently going research on 10.0 uvb lamb all over Europe (I have talked with some vet) because they are assuming that if the animals are kept too close to this kind of lamp they could create problem to the eyes of the animals starting from congiuntivitis and in the worse cases cancer (the research is still going i know some result as pers. comm). If you go on the zoomed site on the lamp section you will read that the 10.0 are builted for tall terrarium and they suggest a distance between the lamp and the animals of 45cm. so who is wrong???? don’t forget that in nature they can adjust by themselves, do we give the same opportunity to our captive animals?????

“question regarding the humidity. I had heard that electricity is very expensive in Italy and air conditioning is not very common. So, I was wondering if you have air conditioning where the silkbacks are kept? If not, do you live in a humid region? Most of us here have air conditioning, so even in places where it is very humid (like NC & AR), the dragons habitat is usually kept at a much lower humidity level. So, I was wondering what the humidity level is in the silckbacks enclosures.”
First of all I live in rome which is not that humid, second of all the cages are inside rooms which are completely isolated (and that was costing me lot of money). Inside my room I have 40% of humidity. When the weather is right I take them outside and every night I put them back. I do not have any air condition for them…. they are desertic animals.

”but I just wanted to point out that there are several differences between your recommended husbandry for silkbacks and regular bearded dragons”
This is your opinion, at the moment I keep normal and silkback in the same way…and at this moment my RESULTS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES

”how closely related the dragons were that created the silkback mutation. You have implied they were closely related, but I was wondering to what degree? Were they siblings? I am trying to get a grasp on this and also would really like to know how long ago the mutation occurred and how many generations have passed. Were the leather backs that originally created the silkbacks closely related? If so, is it possible this mutation is a result of inbreeding and not a co-dominant gene? Has it had time to be proven out as a co-dominant trait?”
i think I have already answered this question 3 times already…""puppytoes: as i told you there is a distance but i am aware that it is a small distance...it's a new thing and i do have 4 generation now. i have tested the genetic of silkback in the third generation of leatherback."" . but I can add more, silkback is not a mutation over another mutation. But it is the super form of a codominant gene. And this year I proved it out because I have bred my silkback male on a normal female (unrelated) and it gave me all the babies being leath. And this is the last confirmation you could have. I suppose you may need some info on genetic and I suggest you to read the chapter in the N.E.R.D. site. For your info I add some link that can be helpful

http://vmsherp.com/LCGenetics301.htm this is a section who explain easily the transmission of characters and the definition
http://www.geneticswizard.com/ this is a site where you can easily test any cross you want to do and it will give you the result in %

wendi I am sorry I am answering in this way but it seems to me that you are not doing constructive criticism but you are trying to find any fact that can help you to say silkback are not healty. if for any reason you need that (and I don’t understand why) please tell me and I will find a way to help you.

alessandro