**IBD** TEST RESULTS**LAB REPORT***

Ciro, This is why I said what I said.

I do not know Bill Cagle.  I haven't ever done business will Bill Cagle.  Knowing that Bill Cagle sold a sick snake to someone, I probably won't do business with Bill Cagle.  That having been said, I also don't want anything from Cagle.  I don't want to run him out of business.  I have no personal grudge against him.  He sold a sick snake without misrepresenting the snake.  However bad that may be, it is an honest business practice.  He also made this situation more than right in my eyes by sending a healthy snake from his personal collection.  I cannot see myself doing that in his situation, but to me it was above and beyond the requirements to rectify the situation.  This is why I felt no need to "attack" Cagle.  I think the original post by Chris served the purpose it should have had which is to be a warning agains possibly sick snakes.  Most of what was said and how it was said was an attack.

I was not attacking Chris whatever his name is.  Too much of that went on in the other thread started by him.  I don't believe in attacking people.  What I do believe in is doing what I can with the people I am speaking with.  At that time, I was posting something that I felt he needed to know which is a) how to deal with the possibility of having his entire collection infected with a retrovirus and b) how to aviod being attacked for what he was saying.  You are right.  If he wants to sell his snakes to other people, then there is nothing I can do about it.  But now he cannot say that he has not been made aware ot the gravity of this situation.  I suspect that Cagle already knows the gravity of the situation, but if he were here I would be in no way afraid to say the same thing to him.  Therefore Bill, If you are reading this, I would suggest the same quaranteen to you.

To Mr McCarthy:
I do not know exactly what truth you are refering to or how exactly I am supposed to be hurt by it, but I have no fear of exposing any bad deal coming from anyone regardless of their status, but you will never catch me attacking anyone.

Thanks for your time.
-Morti.

This is quite an alarming post.. Now I'll also go with a disclaimer, just as Ciro did, that I do not know either Chris nor Bill.
I really am surprised Chris is receiving such a harsh response on the board.. Yes, Chris will need to practice stricter quarantine procedures, that's been established.  So has the fact Chris should not purchase any new boas, or sell any of his remaining collection until his animals receive a clean bill of health.  I think it's a little harsh though to tell Chris it's his responsibility to contain IBD, yet absolve Bill of any blame.  Bill is a big breeder and made a mistake, of which it appears he owned up to (through replacement animals).  Have to agree he came through on a rather bad deal for both the buyer and the seller.  But Bill also will need to ensure he has no other boas that could have been exposed.  It worries me when Chris states Bill has already put siblings to this boa into his breeding colonies.. Are they infected???  Good question.  Could they have been??  Another good question.  This forum is supposed to serve as a warning on bad dealers, and on possible dangerous situations in the herp community.  I think Chris is following the rules in his postings, and issuing a warning for any and all boa enthusiasts out there.  I really don't believe he should be chastized for it..

Just my opinion,   Stephen Emerick
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Napa Valley Snakes &nbsp; &nbsp; <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

I would like to here Bills version of the events. Is it common practice to sell sick wild caught snakes if you inform the buyer. That seems like a recipe for disaster.

Tony,

I never saw the ad, does anyone have a link to the ad? &nbsp;However, even if the ad said imperfect, imperfect means scars, kinked tail, etc. &nbsp;I would never EVER expect imperfect to mean deadly virus, would &nbsp;you??? &nbsp;

I understand that IDB can't be tested on live animals, but everyone who breeds boas or pythons should know the symptoms, right? &nbsp;If your, or anyone elses, definition of imperfect includes viruses, shouldn't the seller inform the buyer of the symptoms and not just say, a little skinny or whatever??

I guess the important question would be what Mr. Cagle meant when he called them imperfect and what he told Chris Red. &nbsp;Maybe Chris Red orBill Cagle should post their emails. &nbsp;

Ciro

Ok....here you go emails from him....does this sound like I was buying &nbsp;"as-is" &nbsp;snakes. Besides who would buy a "as-is" snake





HEY CHRIS, YES THEY ARE UNRELATED AND COULD POSSIBLY BREED IN 2002. I WOULD
WAIT UNTIL NEXT YEAR JUST TO MAKE SURE THEY ARE PLENTY BIG. I NEVER RUSH MY
BOAS. IF THEY ARE TOO SMALL, THEY WILL PRODUCE VERY SMALL CLUTCHES. IT IS
ALWAYS BETTER TO WAIT AND GET A LARGER CLUTCH. IT ALSO PUTS LESS STRESS ON
THE FEMALE WHEN SHE HAS GOOD SIZE. PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU DECIDE ASAP. I
HAVE SOMEONE ELSE INTERESTED.

THANKS, BILL




YES THEY ARE BOTH TAME. I'VE HAD THEM FOR SEVERAL MONTHS.

THANKS, BILL





HEY CHRIS, I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND. I WILL DO $420, BUT PLEASE DO NOT TELL
ANYONE YOU GOT THEM THIS CHEAP. I WOULD LIKE TO KEEP MY PRICES AS HIGH AS
POSSIBLE. I SELL LOTS OF BOAS BUT STILL LIKE TO MAKE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE ON
EVERY SELL. I'M SURE YOU UNDERSTAND.

THANKS, BILL



HEY CHRIS, IT'S PROBABLY JUST WATER. SOMETIMES AFTER SHIPPING, THEY WILL
REGURGE WATER. I DIDN'T FEED HER, SO SHE DOES NOT HAVE A MEAL IN HER. GIVE
HER A FEW DAYS AND I AM SURE SHE WILL BE FINE.

THANKS AGAIN, BILL



I WOULD GIVE THEM A FEW MORE DAYS TO SETTLE IN AND THEN FEED THEM. I WAS
FEEDING BOTH F/T MEDIUM RATS.

THANKS, BILL




HEY CHRIS, I'M SORRY TO HEAR SHE IS NOT DOING ANY BETTER. I HAVE ANOTHER
ANIMAL THAT I GOT FROM DALE PICOLA THAT IS PASSING ALOT OF YELLOW FLUID. I'M
NOT SURE WHY THEY ARE DOING THIS, BUT I HAVE MINE ISOLATED FROM THE OTHERS
AND I WOULD SUGGEST YOU DO THE SAME. IF SHE IS NOT BETTER IN A FEW WEEKS I
WILL SEND YOU ONE OF MY PERSONAL ANIMALS. SORRY YOU ARE HAVING SUCH BAD LUCK
WITH HER. I THOUGHT SHE WAS OK OR I WOULD NOT HAVE SENT HER TO YOU. PLEASE
LET ME KNOW HOW SHE DOES.

THANKS, BILL





HEY CHRIS, I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND. I WILL SHIP YOU ONE OF MY FEMALES ON
THURSDAY FOR FRIDAY MORNING DELIVERY. SHE IS A VERY NICE ONE AND I THINK YOU
WILL BE VERY HAPPY WITH HER. I AM SORRY ABOUT THE OTHER ONE. I SHOULD HAVE
KEPT HER LONGER AND MADE 100% SURE SHE WAS OK BEFORE SELLING. I HAVE BEEN
TRYING TO GET HOLD OF DALE PICOLA (SAN DIEGO VIVARIUM) BUT HE IS AVOIDING MY
CALLS. HE IS REAL PIECE OF WORK! I WILL NOT BE BUYING ANYMORE ANIMALS FROM
HIM NEEDLESS TO SAY. WELL ANYWAY, PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHEN SHE ARRIVES ON
FRIDAY. IF YOU AND YOUR VET CAN NURSE THE OTHER FEMALE BACK TO HEALTH, JUST
GO AHEAD AND KEEP HER TOO. I WOULD KEEP HER ISOLATED FROM THE OTHERS THOUGH.

THANKS, BILL

okay.....it seems they were not sold "as is" &nbsp;got the point...thanks.

but as far as I can tell from the letters....they were healthy and did not show any symptoms.

I once received "adopted" a snake with IBD..... &nbsp;It took him like 4 months to show signs. &nbsp;Luckily he was in another room because I did not have any room for him with the rest of my collection. &nbsp;He was eating fine and everythng.......then one day he just started losing weight....started star gazing etc etc. &nbsp; I could have ended up selling this snake while it was "healthy" &nbsp;Would I be wrong for selling a seemingly healthy snake?....remember he did not show signs for the longest time.....and he was even eating.....

I was not flaming Chris whatever his real name is. &nbsp;He has every right to warn everyone. &nbsp; And I thank him for it. &nbsp; But my feelings are
1. Bill sold the snakes "as is" &nbsp;or they were sold as outwardly "healthy"

2. &nbsp;When problems arose....he compensated chris for it.

3. &nbsp;He is not responsible for Chris' WHOLE collection. &nbsp;Chris should have practiced better quarantine procedures.

4. &nbsp;Chris says he practiced good quarantine procedures and that the other snakes did not have any exposure from the sick one. &nbsp; If this is true....then why is he so worried about the whole collection.............Somewhere in here is a lie. &nbsp;It does not add. &nbsp; I do not like lies

Donnie Smith,
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; What I meant about the "truth" is simple. Ciro told it like it should be told. You were saying Chris should do this and Chris should do that. Well what about Bill?? It does not matter how Bill made things right after the fact. This thread would not be here if Bill had not sold some sick animals. Bill made it right by replacing the animals !! FANTASTIC!!! But in your one post you sound like you are putting the guilt on Chris!! What about Bill?? How do we know that he is not going to put someone else's collection at risk?? Why do you dump this burden on Chris??
&nbsp; My point being! I think Bill made things right, by replacing the animals. So What? He is still at fault!! Do you think that Bill would be less at fault if Chris had to put down every snake that he owned? You say that you would like to hear Chris say "lesson learned"! Well I think a lot of people might like to hear Bill say it also!!!!
&nbsp; &nbsp; Tom

An amazeing thing

Ciro had the nerve, albeight the audacity to assume that what has transpired here was NOT Chris fault, but the fault of Bill Cagle.

If this were a human health issue, I doubt seriously if spam_people who wanted to know all the details would be discouraged from doing so. spam_On the spam_Boa forum,Chris was chided as being immature because he spam_complained vicariously about not only the promises made, to him but also to the illness of the snake that was sold to him. For this , he was told to "Give it a rest" or that "This doesnt belong here"
What I sense is that the people on that forum fear conflict, and would rather allow an injustice to happen, even if it potentially JEOPARDIZES snakes in their own collections, or a positive mood or tone, than engage in discussion about something as horrible as I.B.D. or Mr.Cagles busines practices.

I find it reprehensible, that a person who is taken advantage of, becomes an object of ridicule, in the name of keeping the peace, when frankly, the peace SHOULDN'T be kept if it allows evil to prosper. Yes, he got snakes in exchange for the one that was sick. And there will be those that said that was more than enough.
Q: Would you trust those SAME snakes spam_that were exchanged for the sick ones in YOUR collection?
A: I sure the #### would not.

Bill Cagle has blamed this mess on Dale Picolla, and subsequent to that , he layed the blame on Gary Sipperlys doorstep. spam_As usual, blame shifting is in full affect. And to top it off, members of that forum have laid the blame on the VICTIM, Chris, and said that he needed to back off or take it somewhere else.
Well....he did..he did the rsponsible thing and took it here.
And what happens? He gets lambasted for continueing to complain about it. spam_Amazeing

CIRO said it best. I guess when you get big enough it insulates you from haveing to TRULY answer for your wrongs. If that had been myself,Chris, Giantkeeper, or spam_any number of others, we would have never been able to sell a snake again, useing the boa forum as a marketing tool.
It is sad, neigh, pathetic that the accountability factor isnt being examined here. Chris showed as well as he could that he was wronged, that a potentially harmfull virus may or may not be floating around in the person collection that he bought these snakes from. spam_That should send off alarams.
It doesnt
I dont understand it.
Is it because we dont want to HEAR them.
Or because it is easier to blame the victim for
being the victim....than the perpetrator for being
the perpetrator


YOU were here...discussing this same type of issue, concerning Bill Cagle and a sick snake some 6 odd months ago.
anybody remember that?
And the young man that posted that complaint came under the same kind of fire that this one has.
When will you draw that same wrath upon the man that sold him that sick snake and potentially may sell you one , (unbenounced to him..of course) as well.
When does it become truly important?
When YOU become the victim instad of Chris, or Kemper, or a host or forum regulars that complain but never speak up?


spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_Its a strange world we live in.

spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_Evil is perceived as good, and cloaked

spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_in a blanket of rightousness. spam_True good,

spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_often is assaulted and maligned UNJUSTLY.

spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_And small people lose their voice to

spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_tyranny and are paralyzed by their

spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_own fears and greed..


spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ Fred Albury

spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ spam_ (Aztec Reptiles)

Wow. Fred, you expressed what I have been feeling these last few days exactly. We do not have a huge boa collection but we do have a few. We also have several pythons in our collection as well. I was initially amazed (and I guess I still am) that so many people just want Chris to drop the issue, and I am really bothered by the fact that so many are trying to put the blame on Chris somehow for not practicing proper quarantine procedures. I mean let's be honest for just a minute here, how many of us have brought a new snake into our collections without a proper quarantine period, especially when we were less experienced keepers? I think that Bill Cagle is completely at fault here as he supposed to be the "professional" (not) and have so much experience in boa constrictor husbandry. Bill Cagle should not be brokering animals which he knows are not healthy. Does anyone disagree with that statement? "He should not be buying and reselling animals which he knows are not healthy".
Just my opinion, for what it is worth. Good luck Chris, I feel for you.

Fred,
I agree with what you said completely. &nbsp;I personally have not blamed Chris. &nbsp;In fact I was ridiculed on the forum for attempting to get the individuals name and I have supported Chris all the way. &nbsp;I was insulted by a couple "resident experts" there on teh forum for various things. &nbsp;THIS DISEASE KILLS PYTHONS DEAD! &nbsp;Get it through your heads folks. &nbsp;I do not know why it reacts differently in Boas. &nbsp;I am also not really convinced it does. &nbsp;I am going on the "resident experts" words. &nbsp;It amazes me that these "resident experts" know so #### much about this disease, but the individuals who are studying it daily know less than they do?!?!?!
This is important and Bill DOES NEED to address this issue in regards to his future business. &nbsp;Who cares where it came from (for this case anyway), Bill sold the animal. &nbsp;Due to that, regardless of how long he had it, he is accountable.
The ONLY thing I have stated that Chris may not have liked is that 1. &nbsp;he was asking for too much. &nbsp;At the point he took in the "replacement snakes", the one in question was not even dead. &nbsp;Bill made good. &nbsp;Does that change the fact that he sold a dying snake? &nbsp;Does that mean the snake REALLY had it when BIll sold it? &nbsp;Does that mean there were signs of this PRIOR to Bill selling it? &nbsp;WHO KNOWS AND WHO CARES. &nbsp;What is done is done. &nbsp;Chris is in a bad situation that NOBODY can change.
Nobody wants to talk about this disease. &nbsp;Do you find it odd people? &nbsp;You should. &nbsp;Do you find it odd that almost everything I said on the forum (right or wrong it was an opinion BASED ON FACTS) has been deleted. &nbsp;Here is a copy/paste of the rules of the forum....We ask that you refrain from making personal attacks. Anything considered off-topic, abusive, or obscene will be edited. Advertising anything, except for events, is prohibited here.
So it is clear to me that a disease that COULD POSSIBLY (read that carefully folks) wipe out a collection is off topic. &nbsp;I cannot see where else it would fall in the rules. &nbsp;I suppose the truth hurts and nobody wants to see this.
Is it because your "big time breeders" are selling snakes with the same thing and KNOW IT! &nbsp;I have heard stories through the years. &nbsp;Just something to think about. &nbsp;From what I know and I am not going on first hand knowledge, Pete Kahl had this disease in his collection. &nbsp;This was brought to my attention by someone on the forum last week which I already knew, but what the ####. The person went on to say that Pete was honest about ait and it has not hurt his business. &nbsp;It sure shouldn't hurt his bussiness when he put down HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars worth of snakes just to keep things safe. &nbsp;GOD BLESS HIM FOR THAT! &nbsp;I respect that a great deal. &nbsp;Others have asked me if I would do that with a Sunglow, an albino, a whatever. &nbsp;The answer is I WOULD IN A HEARTBEAT and so should everyone else. &nbsp;
I could go on, but I will not. &nbsp;THis post is NOT directed at anyone in particular so please do not send all the fan mail. &nbsp;Respond if you wish, but NOBODY is going to change the way I feel and the way I THINK all should feel about the uncertain.
Brian Oakley