Lets talk about hybridization.....

Difference of opinion is welcome ofcorse, but PLEASE, lets keep it civil.... We do not want this turning into a huge argument.... I am starting this thread so people can see both sides of the coin on this subject and come to their own conclusions.....

I will post the reasoning behind why I feel most hybridization should not be propagated in captivity..... Call it "idealistic nonsence" if you will, but I have pretty good reason to see fault in this part of the hobby and I stand pretty strongly by what I believe.....

So, what are we realy doing to these animals when we hybridize??? What are we doing to them on a biologic level......
I mean, some animals that are being hybridized are not even from the same evironmental conditions..... Are the hybrid offspring being torn apart inside???
Just because they appear to look normal on the outside, it does not mean everything is going well on the inside..... The proof in this is found in some hybrids..... Irregular organ placement, bone structure deformities, infertility, lung capacity issues, irregular scale formations, and neurological problems have all been noted in certain hybrids.....

There have been hybrids produced from animals that are not even in the same genus..... Animals with special organs are bred with animals lacking them..... What good can come of this for the animals "created" by hybridization???

Another thing you need to look at is the captive population.... Do you realy want tainted or unpure blood lines popping up in your collection.... People might argue that as long as they are represented correctly and truthfully by the breeder than it is fine..... I say that is nonsence.... Here is why....

Breeder A sells a super ball to breeder B....
Breeder B, breeds this snake to a pure ball.....
Babies hatch out and breeder B properly represents them and sells 4 neos to 4 other breeders/hobbiests....
Who knows what these breeders/hobbiests are doing with them or what they are breeding them to.... Even if they breed them and sell the neos as what they truely are, who is to say that every one who was sold one of these muts will represent them truthfuly if they sell them or breed them???

See how it can just get so out of hand and how these animals can make their way into a collection where they are not wanted???

But my stance does differ when it comes to natural intergrades..... Hybrids that occur in nature on a regular basis is fine in my opinion..... It is when breeders start to "Frankenstein" animals together that would never meet up or breed with eachother in their natural habitat, that it becomes a problem that can affect the animals, us, and our captive blood lines....

Look at Boas for example..... Do you know for sure you are getting a pure hog or any other sub-species??? Alot of the subs have been crossed like crazy.... Even carpets have been outcrossed to other subspecies...... I hate to say it, but even leopard gecko subspecies have been crossed so much it is absolutly impossible to get a pure subspecies now, especially because of import/export regulations.....

I feel it is highly unethical to hybridize in most cases and it does nothing good for the hobby and I find it funny when someone says it is doing something for science or taxonomy....LOL.... What a joke..... The animals do not benefit from it..... The only things to benifit from this are the hybrid breeders and their bank account....

Wow that was a hell of a post Gregg...

I tend to agree with you on basically all of those points. As for improper breeding and propogation of defects, look at tail-kinks in LVPA Leopard Geckos... It's not hybridization but it shows just how quickly defects can affect an entire market.

As for the health of animals, I don't think anyone can really dispute that there are definitly health defects that occur when hybridizing, even if it's as simple as a shorter lifespan, you may not know that until 6 years later, after you have introduced it to the amrket and sold babies, ect. And in this business, there is always someone out make a quick buck, so there will ALWAYS be mis-represented animals.

Hi all Im not to expeirenced in this but here goes well for example what about subspecies that intergrade in the wild? it happens more than often with the box turtle species many many box turtles are seen in the wild as intergrades one in particular is commonly seen is the intergrade of 3 toed with ornate it looks like a 3 toed but with a slight pattern look of a ornate and this happens in nature and pretty much they look more unique and yet it feels that when this happens in captivity it just doesnt seem like such a negative factor personally I wouldnt do it but if I cant say that I despise others who do but I wouldnt support it either in the wild I have always wondered that intergrading probably as test in evolution in the wild but in our captivity hhmmm it just seems out of our control
thanks,
Jose

Good posts Brian and Jose.... This is something that is interesting to me even though I am not for it..... Maybe we can get some opinions from people that are for it as well.....

I personally, have mixed feeling about this subject. i think its cool and fascinating when i see a ball mixed with a blood, or a woma, with a carpet. but there has to be defects in it like Gregg has posted. thats what I'm not for. if its gonna hurt or make the lives of the animal hard for them. then i don't think it should be done. if its in the wild let it harpen, thats nature, but what people are trying to do is play "god". i say in captivity keep them basic, how they are. but if you buy 2 wild types that are both hybrids. then you can breed them as hybrids, because thats what happened to them in nature. but i dont think your gonna find 2 hybrids and unrealted that happned in the wild. well thats my opinion.

Good post Kyle....

The only thing I have to disagree with is the not finding 2 unrelated natural intergrades.... I have a few wild caught gaboonXrhino vipers that are unrelated and of different ages.... The reason I know they are unrelated is because they were collected from two different Countries in West Africa....

There are pros and cons with respect to hybridization and there are good reasons and bad reasons to hybridize.

Ar some level some people have a basic "emotional" response and say it should never be done. Well...never is pretty closed minded. Even the Bible, in which "Thou shalt not kill" is one of the ten biggies allows one to kill in self defense. And as I have said earlier in another thread, just because no one has seen carpondros in nature does not mean that they do not occur. Similarly for "comas" as, both cases. there is commonality of range.

Further arguing against those who oppose crosses of any kind, I do not know of any movement among equine breeders to ban the production of mules. As everyone probably knows, a mule is a horse/donkey cross, specifically a female horse with a male donkey (reversing the sexes produces the slightly different "hinny"). While it was once thought that all mules and hinnies were sterile, that is not the case. Some actually are fertile. Mules have greater load carrying and endurance capacities than horses and better temperaments than donkeys, so I understand.

People who argue that it "is not natural" may have missed the point that reptiles are wild animals and living in plastic or melamine or glass cages is hardly "natural" for them. Nor is eating "an appropriate sized rodent once a week" exactly in keeping with a "natural" feeding regimen. Nor is living on aspen or paper towels. Or drinking water from a bowl. Nor would a Ball Python from one part of its range encounter one from another, but how many here have locality data on their Ball Pythons? or their cornsnakes? How often are retics from one island locale crossed with those from others? Natural? Any of it? I think not. So the "natural argument does not hold water for me as none of how we keep our herps is all too "natural".

So when is it OK? For scientific purposes. To improve the species. To advance knowledge. And ONLY when done by reputable individuals and groups who will not misrepresent the animals or sell them to anyone who would. Hard to do, of course.

As for the Woma/Carpet cross to which Gregg alluded (the "coma"), I have no problem with its very existence. In fact I find it fascinating. There have been many revisions in the taxonomy of Pythonidae but virtually everyone agrees that Aspidites deserves its own genus and that its members are different from members of all of the other genera. In creating this cross all that we know about Pythons and certainly the Linnean classification of Pythonidae has been thrown upside down. Should it be done again? I don't know. What should be done with these animals? Grow them up and see if they are fertile.

What is a bad reason to hybridize? Profit.

Well Jim, I can always rely on you for an intelligent post even if I do not agree with it.... You are one of the few people who make me rethink my views sometimes...LOL....

Thats what I am looking for..... Someone to argue against my point of view without the usual mindless phrases and the "We do it because we can" attitude....

Anyway, thanks for your input Jim..... It is always welcome on one of my threads....

I entered this issue from the point of view of an artist. Some of the hybrids are aesthetically exquisite.

Then, as my education on the hobby increased I began to look at the issue more like a scientist. I have become much more emotionally, if intellectually, invested in the issue of conservation. Conserving the natural genotypes. Granted I might be overreacting; but I find the careless and common hybridization of the available captive population alarming.

I am not militant in my position, nor am I naive enough to think that it could be totally halted. In fact there just might exist viable reasons for experimenting with hybridizing certain species. If anyone can provide such viable reasons I am eager to consider them.

Conversely, My opinion is that the conscientious work of those that breed to maintain the pure, natural genotypes will prove to be of greater value. And, dang it! I want to see DNA typing/testing become established practice and be commonly available.

Gregg M, Not trying to start an argument, but as far as I understand a hog island boa is a Boa Constrictor Imperator, or a "common boa"/"central american boa", the same subsecies as Colombian boas (not the "True" red-tail colombian, Boa Constrictor Constrictor), Cancun boas, and sonoran desert boas, just to name a few. I completely understand your point, since hogs are probably extinct in the wild it is important to maintain real hog island boas, but it is also important to have healthy bloodlines.