Addendum to rules - posting links to ads

I don't go to that other site much, and certainly do not have an account there, but I assume that users in the classifieds can deleted and/or edit their ads at will? If so, there is NO lasting proof of anything on the source placed on that site. Cutting and pasting it HERE on the BOI will lock it down for good. There is no such protection over there by simply providing a link to it.

Ads placed here on FaunaClassifieds are the same way. Every user has the capability to edit or delete their ads as they see fit. So if something looks unusual, cut and paste the actual text and photos as you see them and post them in the BOI. Otherwise your evidence is subject to removal by the very person or business you are inquiring about.

And to be frank about it, I would like to limit the number of dead links that are showing up on this site. It is rather senseless putting up a link to incriminating evidence that can vanish in a heartbeat.

I agree with Webslave, there does not have to be a link. Cut and paste works just fine and even better since it cant be edited once copied.
Also, I would like to add that I look in the want ads here daily, as I am still in the buying mode, and personally, when I see an ad and then have to click a link to the other site I just close it. Why? Because I think it is down right rude to try to sell here on a free site yet put a link in to the other paying site of the pic of the animal. Just my personal opinion.

While I can and will accept the links in e-mail.
And while I am willing to verify it and stuff.

My word should really hold no more weight than anyone else's (<--is that a word?)

I do see both points though.

1. The links are imprtant to show the active users the ad before it gets deleted or edited.

2. The ad can be edited or deleted and it will beomce a he said she said.

3. There links do become dead and useless.

I guess I need to make this clear as well.

Photos pointing to an image in photo gallery (such as gallery.pethobbyist.com) are no longer welcome here either. Same concerns as expressed above apply to these links.

I was scanning through the classified ads here and noticed a few examples where posted linking images were no longer available and were replaced by blocks with a red "x" in them. Others were providing links to sites that advertised that site, which I am not inclined to allow any longer.

This message board software is VERY capable and can easily upload images from your local hard drive. Embedded links to images on your own domain are also easily accomplished. I can't see any reason at all why someone cannot utilize these tools and make things a lot easier on the viewers here.

Rich,

I am not a big fan of kingsnake.com (hope that is not a violation) but I think that is of what we a writing; but I am a big fan of faunaclassifieds.com. I used to be a forums member there, at ks, but quit many months ago after they started excluding others (not me) over what amounted to fly droppings to them, but what they made to be a major point of honor and morals as I and others saw it. Yet I will admit, I do peruse their classifieds sections every now and then.

Maybe that does not make sense to you, or seems hypocritical, but let me explain: I stopped using their forums so as not to contribute anything (or to contribute minimally by way of site traffic) to them from me. Yet I continue to peruse their classified ads and sometimes buy from one of their advertisers. When I make the purchase the seller has no clue I saw the ad on kingsnake (unless I tell them, or unless it is the only place they advertise). I try not to let on as to where I saw the ad, if I don't have to. I figure using kingsnake this way is not giving them a thing, but rather taking advantage of them. (Please, let me know if I am wrong - and I am sure somebody will as usual - that is why I love this site.) I figure if I can use them, without them using me, then so be it because they have, in my opinion, screwed others.

The thing about not allowing links to as on their site, and as I understand especially to questionable ads on their site, is that you are denying people a chance to see the SOURCE of a complaint here in your BOI (despite others saying that the source is not available because it has likely expired by then). Sure some people may thus visit kingsnake who would not have known of it otherwise - but how many people would that be! Probably very few indeed. I say very few indeed because most of your visitors already know about the existence of ks (since you cater to those in the know in herpdom), and very few do not, and even among those who do not - they will find out about it sooner or later.

So what do you stand to gain or lose from this most recent move to deny links to ads on kingsnake.com. Here is how I see it: Faunaclassifieds.com has an appeal to those in the herp community (old timers or new comers) who want to accept and deal with the truth and honesty! It does not matter if the initial poster of a thread on faunaclassifieds is right or not - and that is because anyone can answer back and can post ALL the available evidence to support or tear down a claim. One of the main attractions of the faunaclassifieds.com site has and probably will be the BOI and a poster's ability to connect evidence to his thread. Darn it - one of the main bitches from faunaclassifieds.com and the fc moderators is that someone has not supplied the evidence to make a claim! Now would you deny someone the chance to supply a direct link to such evidence! Sure you can say this is giving business to Jeff B. and to kingsnake; but I wonder - down the road will you decide to ban the use of the kingsnake.com name in your forums because that too would be giving business to the other site? (it is the same exact principle, in my opinion, but just to a differing degree - and that is whether or not you like it or want to believe it.)

The BOI has been so very successful because you, as webslave, have always allowed people to see each side of the coin or the of the argument. You have always been willing to show it all. One of the reasons that kingsnake.com lost a lot of users in the past was because they started to limit or out and out deny links to other viewpoints and other sites than their own. Their doing so, drove many people from their site. It also attracted a number of people to the faunaclassifieds site. You are now about to start doing what kingsnake.com is notorious for - you are limiting people's abilities to link to other sites from your site. Whether or not you plan to start doing other, in my opinion, negative things that ks did - you are doing some of it with this move. You are falling, in my opinion, albeit unintentionally to the level of kingsnake.com and to the level of Jeff B.. Please don't do that!

Why not stay on the high road? Why not just disregard the possible business you may push toward kingsnake.com? In disregarding such, you will appear as the one who has taken the higher path (as you have always seemed to me). If some users and potential customers don't see that - so what - most will realize it. Yet I will admit, it should matter most to you alone. Still let me say, it will likely matter to some of your most loyal users a lot even if in the heat of things they don't see it like that now (heck that is probably true of you too). The people who have been around for a long time remember the way this site started and the way it progressed over the years. It was not started - I think - to be a big competitive site and to make lots of money. Heck even I, who was not one of your original users but have been around a while, realizes this. You, and many others of us, lambasted Jeff B. for losing sight of why he seemingly started kingsnake.com; and now I am wondering (not accusing) are you losing sight of why you started faunaclassifieds.com? I hope not and I think not - I figure you are doing what you feel is right - but I do see a reflection of what Jeff B. did with kingsnake.com when he started to ban use of other sites links in what you are doing now. It is scary. Sure you have not done that yet to the extent it was done at ks, but you are maybe starting down that path. It is possibly not a path I would choose to walk, and hopefully one you will avoid. (I hope this is coming out right I am not trying to bad mouth you - I am trying to be critical in a helpful and well meaning manner - but I am a bit high right now on alcohol, it is my BD and I decided to drink a bottle or two of wine and am well on my way into bottle number 2 with number 3 in reserve). Oh well - I am sure you see my point - heck you probably thought of it already - but I had to ask in my own manner: What is going on?

All the best,
Glenn B

I have to agree with Glenn. The number of NEW clientelle that would find KS through this forum would be minimal.

As for postings of ads, the logical move would be to cut and paste the text to the BOI as ads expire all the time or get changed when the bad guys are called out. This has nothing to do with sending traffic anywhere, just reality of time sensitive links.

In the classifieds section here your going to have broken image links all the time whether it's hosted on KS or hosted on someone's individual server/hosting account. I think limiting the time on ads (for example 30 days) would be more effective at removing broken links or animals/products that are already sold.

Photo Gallery: When the things first went down between KS and here, you stated that you wanted to increase the appeal to the newbie/casual hobbyist. They love things like photo galleries with nothing but picture after picture. It may be a traffic draw if that is what you desire.

Traffic Generation: While placement in search engines can be influenced by links from various sites I do not see that this plays into a large portion of a site's placement so you are not assisting KS very much in any placement (if this was your concern).

Personally, I think Fauna is better served by staying above the egomaniacs, insane, and unethical website owners out there and as Glenn says "Take the high road".

bottle or not he hit that nail home in one swift hit. lol
My opinions are that yes i do use KS and i do use Fauna aswell i have to agree that KS forums seem to be more of a cult then we have here and that there seem to be a regular gropu that post and i see many new names asking questions that go unanswered if its not posting pictures of someones beautiful Suri , Guyanan etc which is what there forum has become a simple bosting board to show off there animals and when a needed question is asked it does go un heeded.To be honest any new herper that finds your site chances are they have also found KS.and that new herper is more then likely going to frequent both sites on a regular basis searching one then the other and MANY also post on both sites in for sale and wanted sections.By not allowing interaction you may be feeding your personell vendetta with JeffB by not allowing traffic to cross paths but it will not stop your user from going to his site . or his goingto yours . Its your site and how you maintain it is very well your choice but as glen stated i would really hate to see the word out that you dont allow this or that as your site has been a gleaming example of freespeach and free choice .While if by chance you start to also censor the words or anything realavant to KS then IMO you are taking the narrowminded road Jeff took. but all he has done is mask the words and the travel still happens regardless .For any new herper that does a search they will see your site and the other so there is there chance to give traffic to both sites .

People will go where they want regardless of what you (sp) employ on thissite just as people do off of his site .id say give the choice dont make it for them its kinda like raising a teenager if you deman they do one thing chances are you may loose that traffic in the future or loose the potential frequent customer to your site. thsi isand will be a MAJOR asset to our hobby and buisness ventures for years to come

Rich
I can definately see no reason to help "them" by allowing what amounts to advertising for them on this site. Especially given the way that site is managed, and their attitude toward this site. In my opinion, that and other sites are threatened (and perhaps should be) by the democracy and general freedom-of-speech stance here at Fauna.

I agree with Glenn, that people often come here for the truth and honesty that seems so lacking on other sites. I think that in this sense, Fauna is not actually competing with "them". And its no surprise that they would boycott Fauna in some way.

I support your decision, but I have some questions:

1) How does providing a live link to a BAD "you know who" ad on the BOI help "them"? Does that really amount to advertising for their site?

2) Is there really a possibility that "they" could get any new users/customers via this site? And then only by live links?

3) Haven't "they" become as large as they are partly by being a haven for scammers and their money? Hasn't Fauna grown into what it is, by NOT simply following the dollar -- but by promoting truth? How does allowing live links diminish that truth?


I think that maybe cut-and-paste AND live links might be ideal. That way people can see BAD ads in their original context on other sites, but still have the text in case the link is dead by the time its tried.

It seems to me that "they" don't want their users to see the BOI because, well, once you've been to Fauna -- you see business differently.

Must be the Love Bombs.

I occasionally go to ks as well to look at classifieds as well as contributing to the forums. That doesn't mean that when I come here I want to see ks everywhere.
I don't think this is about vendettas. Or a who can sink lower contest. I get tired of seeing ks here all the time and go to a link for sale, for example, and see the same thing as I just saw at ks. Or go into a thread only to click that link and find it gone.
Nothing wrong with copy and paste. Or nothing wrong with uploading your own pics to here instead of your ad from ks.
Don't really think this is such a big deal.


And happy birthday Glenn

Well, I was wondering how long it would take for the flames to heat up....

If someone wants to consider this stance as a vendetta, then so be it. I am looking at it from a different perspective. How many times have you seen someone post a thread in the BOI and provide a link to that other site and ask about it? Then in 24 hours or sometimes less, they would post a message saying "Oops! The ad is gone now!". I've seen it enough that it has finally sunk in that this is NOT the way I want information posted on the BOI. Once that ad is gone, the whole thread might as well be deleted unless someone did cut and paste it into the thread somewhere. So why not just do that from the start? Even doing a screen capture would suffice, for those people whom know how to do it.

No, sorry, but none of the arguments I have seen here will hold water. Most of this is not about an issue with another site. It is about making the BOI a PERMANENT repository (suppository??) of information and links to external sites will NOT provide that. Not when the information the links are supposed to provide can be gone in an instant.

This applies to ads in the classifieds section as well. And yes, if people would clean up their own messes when links get broken, then all would be well, but that rarely happens even though everyone has the capability to edit and delete their own messages there.

No, I do not want this thread to devolve into another ks vs fc pissing duel. JeffB can do as he pleases on his site, and I will do the same on mine. I don't care that someone will more than likely already know about his site as well as mine. I just do not care to give someone a reason while reading on my site to click on a direct link to go over there to look at something.

And yes, I have drawn in first time viewers. Quite a few actually, with money I spent on direct advertising. I am not trying to block them from learning about ks, I just don't want to be responsible for ANY traffic going from my site to that one.

Oh, and about the "high road" thing.... there is no such thing in this business. Not that I have seen, anyway. There are darn few people anywhere that will choose to do something on a purely ethical standpoint IF it will cost them money to do so.

I'll just say this about that matter: If you FEED the beast, you DESERVE the beast to bite off your hand when it gets a notion to.