limit this site to sells for pet. propagation. education. collecting purposes

As I read over this thread the last few minutes I found lots of points to address. I will forgo them at this point.

In the end my thoughts lie not with if such advertising should be allowed, Rather that I would want to know where my animals were going.

If a advertisement is blatant then there is no question, right?

Well who would send their animals off to slaughter? Some would and some wouldn't.

If someone on here is asking for wholesale lots (which many dealers and breeders do) then you would have no idea where the animals end destination could be. They could be resold to a foreign buyer. They can end up in a hell house and die a slow painful death of neglect.

At least with the knowledge of the destination you can make a informed decision. Sell and buy to who you choose.

How many low grade lots of snakes, or normals sold here ended up as food for someone or some other pet? How many here asked before they sold? If you did, are you sure you got a honest answer?

It seems to me that if you care, you would rather see it in the ad and take note not deal with that person.

If someone doesn't care, do you think that it matters?

How is not allowing the mention of the animals destination going to stop anything?

If not illegal to sell and export and they don't mention the destination, you would never know, correct?

So other than feeling good that you didn't see it mentioned in the Ad what would be accomplished from banning such a classified?

For Hong Kong market Common Snapping Turtles (WC) Adults

It would simply be changed to

large wholesale lots wanted. Can you beat this price?

So who loses out? Surly not the guy who needs a large amount turtles to send wherever. And not the guy who needs to move a lot turtles fast and doesn't care where they are going. I think the only person that loses is the person who would have second thoughts or wouldn't send their animals to slaughter because they weren't allowed to be informed.

I'd rather know instead of feeling all warm inside that we didn't allow people to tell them in the ads.


I'm going to waffle a little here and go back to couple of points I was thinking about as I read this thread.

I'll just say splitting hares about feeders raised for consumption of other animals "our preferred pets" as some how noble and tasteful in comparison food harvested for humans is a bit ridiculous.

Go over to a rat fancier site and explain to them the noble endeavor you have undertaken to support the animal you care to breed, collect and propagate. Just maybe they will repeat that out of place Gandhi quote that someone posted on this thread. How we treat our pets.. After all, our pets are better.

Actually, I think that's a good point. Would someone who breeds pet rodents like to know if you are using them as feeders? If they are breed as pets, of course they do. They would like to know if you are using them as feeders and decline if they choose.


It is better to know than not to know so you may make a informed choice.

Most will not be as stupid to go to a site where a particular animal is cherished as a pet and advertise they are buying for food. Most would not advertise that fact. Many would be deceptive that would post in such places.

It's interesting how we can all look at a situation differently when most of us might feel the same way.

For me it is, thanks for letting me know not send you my animals.

For others, "ban him, delete his ads."

Others, "oh this site allows this, I'm leaving and many or coming with me." "I'm not contributing anymore"

To each his own. I think mines rational. Well, it's mine of course I do.

One last thing, If you think Rich bends a knee to threats or whines from advertisers for dollars, or anyone threatening him to leave or not contribute over a issue you haven't been on this site long enough.

Originally Posted by Dennis Hultman

Go over to a rat fancier site and explain to them the noble endeavor you have undertaken to support the animal you care to breed, collect and propagate. Just maybe they will repeat that out of place Gandhi quote that someone posted on this thread. How we treat our pets.. After all, our pets are better.

Actually, I think that's a good point. Would someone who breeds pet rodents like to know if you are using them as feeders? If they are breed as pets, of course they do. They would like to know if you are using them as feeders and decline if they choose.


It is better to know than not to know so you may make a informed choice.

Most will not be as stupid to go to a site where a particular animal is cherished as a pet and advertise they are buying for food. Most would not advertise that fact. Many would be deceptive that would post in such places.

Just to address this point you've maid, I'm only a little sure that if someone went on a rat lover forum, and posted "for sale, large lots of dumbo rats. I have 3000 plus rats, sold by the lb, to zoos. Skip the middle man, I will sell straight to you. I have a price in mind, but looking for the highest price I can milk out of you" that post would be clearly identified, and deleted. It doesn't take a degree to reverse engineer that kind of post. If its really not that obvious to you that these snapping turtles are being sold as food, then I'm sorry for assuming. I didn't realize they had enough room for large aquariums in their bathroom sized apartments. I'm not begging for the deletion of this thread, its obvious that's not going to happen, and it matters not to me. Moving it would probably make a ton of people happy though. Thoughts?

Webslave, I was never directing this directly at you personally, or in any way really for that matter, something shocking caught my eye, and I wanted it to be brought to the attention of anyone who cares, or doesn't care for that matter... from what it sounds like, unfortunately ( meaning the big stuff falls on you and I am sure it can suck and get frustrating), yes you are the owner, you do carry the burdens, the heavy loads of this site, you technically DO have to baby sit people on here, or at least have moderators do that, I do not know if this a a full time or part time thing for you, but it sounds like you are pretty damn committed... no one said it would be easy... it doesn't matter if you like Horses, reptiles, or show rabbits!.... the animal world is crazy... and full of crazy people! It is something us animal lovers NEED to deal with... sometimes on a daily level, depending on how involved we are with our hobby, our passion, our life? I feel bad I brought all this up... there are two sides, and I am seeing both, Webslave, I do believe you see our side, but, I see where there is not a TON of stuff you can do, more because... from a national, government level, he is not breaking the law, that we know of... Sorry if you feel this all rests on you... I am a teeny weenie bit glad though that is subject got brought up... here is a fun article about box turtles.

http://www.wildlifeextra.com/go/news...urtles.html#cr

and for the record.... I am going to stop talking about this. not because I think massive exploitation of wild caught animals is ok, but for one because I do see both sides, and, though Ive never eaten wild caught anything, other then fish. I am guilty of owning in the past wild caught reptiles, in someones eyes, I am sure I am just as guilty... secondly though, because my point has been made. and re made by other members... I like... love this site... and I do not want any door smacking me in the butt... I know webslave is very busy on here and if anything, minimally, thank you for taking the time to address this.


Kevin

Originally Posted by justatwinturbo

Just to address this point you've maid, I'm only a little sure that if someone went on a rat lover forum, and posted "for sale, large lots of dumbo rats. I have 3000 plus rats, sold by the lb, to zoos. Skip the middle man, I will sell straight to you. I have a price in mind, but looking for the highest price I can milk out of you" that post would be clearly identified, and deleted. It doesn't take a degree to reverse engineer that kind of post. If its really not that obvious to you that these snapping turtles are being sold as food, then I'm sorry for assuming. I didn't realize they had enough room for large aquariums in their bathroom sized apartments. I'm not begging for the deletion of this thread, its obvious that's not going to happen, and it matters not to me. Moving it would probably make a ton of people happy though. Thoughts?

Who said it wasn't obvious? In my post? Nothing in my post came closed to stating that I didn't think it was obvious. To the contrary, My post stated that being obvious in any such postings (buying or selling) in general, is a blessing to those that care.

Originally Posted by Dennis Hultman

Who said it wasn't obvious? In my post? Nothing in my post came closed to stating that I didn't think it was obvious. To the contrary, My post stated that being obvious in any such postings (buying or selling) in general, is a blessing to those that care.

Sorry, that part of my post wasn't meant to be directed at you. If you've read the whole thread, some have given the impression that its not obvious enough to say "hey, you're selling these for meat...this isn't walmart, go away"

Originally Posted by Dennis Hultman

In the end my thoughts lie not with if such advertising should be allowed, Rather that I would want to know where my animals were going.

If a advertisement is blatant then there is no question, right?

Well who would send their animals off to slaughter? Some would and some wouldn't.

Thank you. I personally would refuse to sell any of my animals, which includes my horses, to the slaughter market. As a seller I do have some options:
1) Not sell anything, but that's not realistic,
2) Interview the purchaser, though some people will commit fraud or lie, otherwise there would be no need for the BOI,
3) Price the animal above the slaughter market threshhold so someone buying for that purpose wouldn't profit from it, or
4) Sell with a first right of refusal/buy-back contract, that is, if the buyer tells me the animal will be a pet or to fill a hole in the breeding program then that's great, but if the buyer wants to sell the animal in the future I get the first opportunity to purchase it at market price given its future age and condition.

It would be appreciated - and maybe even a potential rule? - that "Wanted" ads in the classifies should indicate why the poster is purchasing (resale, pet, breeder, etc). With most it's obvious already, and if the poster lied in the Wanted ad then that would be the bannable offense.

Lots of good points.
I personally have to agree with Willowman on 1st page.

I dont like how its done either,but we all use insects,rodents and many other things to feed on or too,.Thats their way of life and who are we to tell them they are wrong for eating turtles? I think its sucks someone is going to the pond and just cleaning them out for a quick $. But,its not illegal and till its is,i am for the op to do whats legal in his state. Maybe we as a whole can do something to stop this crap?

What about the rattle snake round ups? Thats right in some of your back yards. Thats not right either,but legal still. I believe . And i big deal to some. But they have venom ,so its ok to catch and kill them to eat and make gifts?
If they were being sold on our market to eat,would it be ok?

I can't see anywhere on this website where it states that the sale/trade of reptiles on said website should be strictly pet oriented. Turtles fall into a category promoted by this website. Turtles being eaten for dinner or not is irrelevant. I would be just as inclined to care not if there was someone buying bearded dragons to throw on the grill with BBQ sauce. I would simply exercise my right to refuse the sale, in favor of someone who will treat my dragons the way that I feel they deserve: as pets. Turtles just happen to be a more readily accepted food, just like frog legs or alligator meat (both of which I am fond of). If anything, Webslaves attitude towards it just makes me love the website even more, if feels truly free, and gives the people quite a bit of power to influence each other. He does not need to directly involve himself, the offended party must simply take action on the BOI with an "info" thread.

In the spirit of giving "feedback" I'm glad the OP did raise this. I found that ad jarring too, and thought it inappropriate here. I get the freedom to post arguments too, but it just doesn't' seem to be in line with the spirit of a reptile enthusiast site to be taking part in the Asian mass food market industry.

Given the argument that drawing a line is difficult, we do, as members, have the tools of karma, trader level, and BOI info threads to use to express our dislike of a post or poster, and maybe all of us who do feel that this ad was inappropriate could express that in one or more of those ways.