Michigan: Operation Slither Strikes at Illegal Reptile Dealers

what good can come from calling dnr officers "wildlife nazis"?your post,mr stahl,makes me believe that you think that their only job is to harass you & your friends/associates?
your more than welcome to show disdain for whomever you please.this is,as you said,America.in this country we can CHANGE the government if it goes down the wrong path.i hope thats what you were alluding to-that if we disagree with the government then we posess the power to CHANGE it.my point,which apparently needs repeating is that by making anti-leo comments you might be alienating certain herpers who might otherwise be sympathetic to your beliefs.
whose high horse?it's not illegal for me or possibly you to own a gun so why bring that up?it is,however ILLEGAL to posses a protected/endangered species in mi.HELLO!?you may have permits but did the arrested have them as well?
as for the government taking my theoretical guns away.well-i vote & belong to an ORGANIZATION that works to prevent such a thing from happening.that is what i encouraged readers,& you,to do.BECOME ORGANIZED!
have you ever checked out the fines for poachers?they are fairly lenient.generally a small fine & minimal jail time w/potential loss of what ever equipment used to do the deed.even on the national level the penalties aren't terribly high.
how much of the post Sept.11 monies do you think went into the dnr's coffers?i'll wager not a lot.
why should authorities come to you?if the sec state changes the fee amount to renew your drivers liscence do you get a notice to that effect before the bill comes?thats just another reason a mentioned a need for an ORGANIZATION.a political body just might have a newsletter to keep the members up to speed.
let me put it another way.instead of ranting about the injustice of it all why not use this incident as a learning expierience?a wake up call?put your energy into positively changing the law so that things like this don't happen again.
as for your last paragraph,well,fell free to say whatever you want.
btw what does"new guy"have to do with the price of beans in Ecuador?my opinion doesn't count because i don't post often?

Since when does the single fact that someone is a law enforcement officer place them above scrutiny?
I support and defend law enforcement officers that respect their position and use their authority to the benefit of the general public.
At the same time I will hold contempt and disdain for any officer or department that abuses that power. That goes for any part of our government.
The simple fact they are a law enforcement officer, or elected official, causes them to be held at a higher standard, and demands the scrutiny of the people. That's democracy.

The various DNR/Fish and Game agencies desperately require justification for their jobs and continued budget levels, or else their funds will be cut to provide a few more metal detectors at an airport. I have seen many instances where the facts were distorted in order to make the bust, only to later be dismissed in court while many of the confiscated animals died in the mean time.
An excellent example was a case reported on in Vivarium magazine where a Californian was permitted (i.e. in possession of a permit) to sell rosy boas. As I remember, the magazine printed a picture of the F&G officer physically stretching a young rosy so it would exceed the size limit and justify the charges. The man's collection was seized and a significant portion of them died as a result.
When someone is smuggling wildlife or shooting deer out of season, bust them, that's their job. But to have laws enacted in closet sessions, then procede to orchestrate a major operation complete with media coverage to use these laws against otherwise law abiding citizens is simply going too far. It's little more than a publicity campaign at the expense of the common man.

and if that same leo/herper reads contempt displayed towards their fellow officer who do you think the leo will side with?a fellow officer or a (potential)law breaker?

So everyone who is not a sworn officer is viewed as a potential law breaker? What force raises officers themselves above that status, are they incapable of breaking the law, or subverting it for their own ends?
And here I had the illusion we were citizens, not merely an unruly populace for whom violating the law is just a matter of time.

facts,either good or bad,are helpful.opinions belong on the editorial page

Joe Friday may have wanted "just the facts" but he didn't run an internet forum. What is a forum other than a global editorial page? Discussions limited to facts without opinion are not discussions, they are merely a series of statements. Statements can't be discussed without involving a measure of opinion.

why break the law in the first place?

Why pass a law without informing those affected and then expect them to magically become aware of it and obey?

By the way, the wildlife nazi comment was mine, not Evan's. I used the term because that's exactly what a portion of them are.
Any agency that would spend 3 years, and untelling amounts of money and man hours just to bust a few people who legally purchased some captive bred reptiles has a serious priority issue.

Ok there Jeff
scan your letter and post it, lets see this letter , it's easy to do just do it . Show us here or are you worried that your boast could be called out.
I frequent many herp shows here in Michigan, I am the ugly short guy with bugs on his arm, walk up and we will chat
By the way Jeff I have full blooded legally obtained black rat snakes. They were obtained out of state.
Another thing why sympathise with the law enforcement A$$holes that will exaggerate the the whole story[ cmon ya know they did] A rescent Ann Arbor paper in an article talking about the very topic of this thread said the enforcement officials were worried about thousands and thousands and thousands of reptiles at risk [the actual words] the article also named James and his father and a few others.
One more question Jeff ....are you affiliated with law enforcement or peta or dnr or fish & game??????

Jeff, you still sem to have a problem reading and comprehending my posts so I will assist you yet again.

1) I never called anyone a nazi. The only nazi that I am aware of in the United States at this time is Attorney General John Ashcroft who is seeking to eliminate the constitution as it stands. So grab your guns and hold on tight there gun boy.

2) I have still not said one derrogotory word about fish and wildlife or any other agents or agencies and yet you keep insisting that I did. When I state facts about there expenditures and timing of their publicity campaigns, is that attacking them and calling them names? I Think not.

3) There is not now nor has there ever been in the state of Michigan a requirement for permits for blandings turtles. They are one of the most common native turtles and due to how high the population is it can not be a justified permit animal as it is not that endangered here. If you purchase babies outside the state of Michigan from a breeder or dealer that will note on the reciept that the animals were shipped from there, you are protected under Michigan law.

Are you in law enforcement Jeff? All this gun propaganda and your unwavering lack of doubt in the agencies to do wrong are red flags. As far as harrassing me and my friends and associates, when they come to your house, seize your property illegally, do damage to your home and then not pay for repairs and do all this breaking in when they know you are out of town, let's see how you would enjoy if it happened to you Jeff. Because that is exactly what happened to some of my friends who have not committed a crime and have full documentation for everything that they are accussed of not having it for. My house was not raided and I was not questioned Jeff, simply because I do not even take a chance at breaking the law. After 3 years of being watched by several agencies and having been present at shows during raids by multiple agencies, I have repeatedly been given a clean bill of health on my legalities and sent on my way. Would it make your argument easier Jeff if I were charged with crimes and arrested?

Jeff.....
Why no responce?????
Where is this letter????
And are you gonna buy some Michigan Native Black Rats from me for your buddies this spring??? how about some baby harp seals or a few bald eagle chicks??? I hear they taste real good

It is not only in Mi. but in Az., Ut., and Ca.
Posted by: Samcin at Sun Jan 11 13:45:02 2004 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,585036772.00.html
Article


I'm not that computer savey, but that is the link from another sight

A friend of mine will be going to court on the resulting charges of this operation next month. I will be very involved. The state tried to convince him very strongly to pay a fine so it would all go away. Instead he has retained an attorney and is going to jury trial to publicly show everyone how unjust this operation has been.

The state has a single key witness that is testfying for them against my friend. He is a long time user and seller of illegal drugs as well as the multiple times that he has been in prison for many serious felonies. If my memory is correct, I believe he has served 4 separate terms in prison for his crimes already. The time spent out of prison has been mostly on parole, probabtion and tether. He also was charged with dozens of counts in this operation and was found to have illegal guns and drugs (including 11 marajuna plants he was growing) in his house upon the entry of law enforcement. This is the quality and reliability of the state's case. To ensure his testimony they dropped the pile of charges against him and probable jail time to just a fine so that he would be in court for them.

This is the way these cases have been handled. Does this piss anyone else off?

Hey Evan, if you don't mind, can you PM me the name fo the informant?

Lessee now
The rap sheet
The guns on the wall in his house
the pot plants in the backyard [heard they were in the backyard]
Yup that's William Sands
I went to the show yesterday and ol BS was there,...,?...,?...now why would ol BS tell me that he is moving to Arizona if'n he was a gonna turn evidence as you said Evan. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!

Again I say HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!

One more time HMMMMMMMM!!

John, I heard that he was moving to Arizona also. I have also heard him tell many people what a terrible guy my friend is, how he screwed him over and how Bill was innocent in everything.

1) My friend that Bill is badmouthing, Bill still owes a bunch of money to for animals that Bill has sold and never paid for and has made clear he will not. Bill would not have been able to exist the past couple years without my buddy giving Bill good animals on time. Time that he has never come through on. This is how Bill repays people who help him. I helped Bill quite a bit myself for years and he has never done anything for me except irritate and bad mouth me. He asks my advice and help even while he badmouths me to others behind my back. He is garbage.

2) Bill sold my friend the animals that he is being charged for. In front of witnesses' Bill told them the origin of the animals as well as telling me and others the same story. A few months later when he is in trouble, the whole story changes and now he is implicating others to save his sorry ass.

I have witnessed Bill break state and federal laws at reptile shows in Illinois. I advised him against selling animals that he illegally brought accross state lines and was attempting to sell against state laws. His response was to try to sell them to another vendor as the authorities were raiding the show so that they would go down for his crimes.

It is unfortunate for Bill that myself and others will be available to counter the information he provides as a witness and to give the jury a better idea as to his past and present behavior to discredit him as a witness. The very idea of the state using him as a witness in a case tells you how desperate they are to get an undeserved conviction using a multi convicted felon for wildlife laws, violent crimes and drugs to take the stand against a good man.

Bill has burned all of his bridges in this business and in this state. He is going to Arizona to claim a house that was left to him in a will as he has nowhere else to go. Once he walks into the courtroom, that will be the last time that anyone in this industry will ever deal with at all.