(Super) Hypo Tangerine = co-dominant?

Kelli,

It certainly could be a dominant trait. However that still would not explain the differences between the Hypo and Super Hypo. One could argue that the only difference is that a Super Hypo is a line bred Hypo, however Rhac's original post kinda kills that idea. As he would not have got Super Hypos out of a normal that came from non Hypo lines.

It also makes me wonder as to what is going on with the Ghost lines. The few photos I have seen of Ghost seem to resemble the original Ray Hine's Hypos much more then most of today’s Hypo and Super Hypo.

~Jeff C.

Originally Posted by KelliH

Well, you see the results of my breedings over the years, what would YOU say it is?

I do not feel it is a codom gene..... I do feel that it is a strong dominant trait..... If I am not mistaken, werent these original Hine hypos wild caught??? I feel it is just a locality color morph that is dominant just like any other wild type color morph if that is the case..... Add the strong genetics plus the luck of the genetic lottery, you get some awesome babies..... But this ofcorse is just my opinion....

If true Ray Hine's Hypos are what we are now calling Ghosts, I believe Jodi Aherns currently has some available. But before you buy them double check with Kelli or Jodi, that they are what you're looking for, as I am still a little shakey on this area of leo genetics

Yes Laura, you are correct that the ghosts are true Ray Hine line hypos. They are actually also the same thing as this, just minus the orange. They are pretty animals. When I first got my "hypo carrot tails" a couple of my females looked like ghosts.-

Originally Posted by robin s.

... that might sum it up.... thing is.... take the macks that is indeed a co-dom no doubr about it

Absolutely!

Or as in boas with the salmon and super salmon. There is a very visible deference between a homozygous and heterozygous animals.

its either incomplete dominance.... or like you stated above co-dom show some line bred traits... i wish i could say this or that but they hypos arent so cut and dry... they seem to be genetic incomplete or co-dom or co-dom showing line bred traits.... i dont know but i do believe what kelli says in the fact that it is a strong trait

This is why I am leaning toward them being an incomplete dominant gene. But seeing that the line bred Hypos were available prior to the Ray Hine's Hypos and people have interbred them so much it will be hard to tell. Is it even possible to find 100% Ray Hine's Hypos with no line bred influences in them?

This is also what has me so intrigued by the Ghost. As they don't seem to have any of the line bred traits.

but people also have to realize hypomelanism is the reduction of black ( or very dark)pigmentation .... so to use the term hypo can refer to many degrees from just reduced patterning or super hypos... but all of them are hypomelanistic by definition

I could not have said it better. In fact I personally feel that High Yellows even fall into the hypo category. I think that as time goes on we are going to find that there are actually multiple genes that are responsible for causing different hypomelanistic traits and morphs like the Albinos.

~Jeff C.

OK...I think, time will tell..
Like I said, I paired the '03 Holdbacks with a High Yellow...eggs are incubating now...so I'll see soon, what the Babys will look like.
I've another Super Hypo Tangerine Carrottail from Ray Hine......pairing her the first time this year, to the High Yellow male as well.
And I have a Super Hypo Tangerine Carrottail Baldy female from David Davies.
I don't know which line her mother is, but she is fathered by an Urban Gecko Line Tangerine. I'll pair her later this season, or the next season to the same wild caught male I paired my first Super Hypo Tangerine from Ray Hine with.

This is one of the '03 holdbacks, I considered as beeing Super Hypo:

the other one with the three points on his back (first photo of this threat) I considered as being Hypo...but you all think, it's Super Hypo as well?

But I think the photos show, that the offspring of pairing Super Hypo to normal
have more spots...and the spots are more intensive black.

hypo x hypo and you should get all hypos but of varying degrees and one of those could be a true super hypo i for got the percentage

when working with the codominant ray hines hypo carrot tail trait...

a hypo X hypo will produce normals as well.

youll get 1/4 normals, 1/4 supers, and 1/2 hypos.

super hypo to super hypo all super hypos.

super hypo X hypo 50% supers 50% hypos

super hypo X normal 100% hypos

hypo X normal 50% hypos, 50% normal

keep in mind these are not set in stone. you are not guarenteed any of these numbers. its like flipping a coin. if you flip it 10 times you may get more heads than tails or vice versa. but if you flip it 100 times you will get roughly 50/50.

BTW, those leos look remarkably like what people in the US are marketing as "ghosts". Just for the record though, a ghost is a Hine line super hypo without the tang.

is it really neccessarily a super hypo? couldnt it be heterozygous for ray hines hypo?

also a "ghost" is just a ray hines hypo than im still confused why people sell them as "ghosts"...

we have:

tangerines: hypo looking animals with a respectable amount of orange selectively bred into them.

linebred hypos: tend to resemble hypos AND tangerines from selectively breeding animals with less spotting and more tangerine. these are sorted using a spot counting method. less than 10 spots on the body (tail and head spots are not included) qualifing the leopard gecko as a line bred "hypo". Zero body spots qualifiying it as a linebred "super hypo".

pastels: im really starting to wonder if this is an actual morph that just never got the respect it deserved. muted pastel colors (mostly yellow) with less spotting and patches of lavendar. i like them, personally.

ray hines hypo: a codominant (or possibly incomplete dominant) morph that appears to "erase" melanin as the neonate reaches maturity. a vanishing pattern hypo, if you will. a heterozygous variant with this trait present will typically have more pattern as they reach maturity when compared to a homozygous ray hines hypo. a homozygous codominat animal is commonly refered to as a "super" in the reptile world (i.g. "super" salmon, "super" spider, "super" snow).

high yellow: hyperxanthic. doubltful this is even a mutation. probably a linebred normal with fewer spots and more yellow. ive never worked with these but thats what ive gathered.

SHTCT: super hypo tangerine. the result of combining tangerines with the ray hines carrotail hypo. breeding a tangerine to a super hypo ray hines carrot tail would result in all hypo tangerine carrot tails. breeding two hypo tangerine carrot tails (preferable selectively bred for tangerine and long full carrot tails) will produce some Super Hypo Tangerine Carrot Tails (approximately 1/4). these must display a high level of tangerine coloration to qualify otherwise they are simply SHCT (Super Hypo Carrot Tails).

ghost: once again im dumbfounded. apparently a ghost is a hypo carrot tail. thats all. a ray hines hypo carrot tail without the introduction of line bred tangerine blood (or backcrossed to a normal animal) with a different name. at least that seems to be the popular opinion (and the results of Rhacs breeding).

so as a result we have 5 different hypos (tang, line bred hypo, pastel, ray hines hypo and high yellow) in leopard geckos. than we have the combination of tang to ray hines, and apparently a second name for the ray hines hypo. pretty confusing.

Pairing her with my Wild caught normal male, I get Super Hypo- or Hypo Tangerine Babies.

you said you got a wild caught leopard gecko... where did you catch/receive it?

a hypo X hypo will produce normals as well.

I don't think I have EVER produced a normal from a SHCT X SHCT breeding. And I've bred a lot of them.

is it really neccessarily a super hypo? couldnt it be heterozygous for ray hines hypo?

No.. the ghosts are Ray Hine Super Hypos that have not been selectively bred for color.

also a "ghost" is just a ray hines hypo than im still confused why people sell them as "ghosts"...

That is the name that someone came up with to market them as. Just like the patternless used to be called "leucistic" when we all know it isn't really a leucistic.

a heterozygous variant with this trait present will typically have more pattern as they reach maturity when compared to a homozygous ray hines hypo.

Ok.. this is interesting. Can you please show us a picture of a "het" Ray Hine Hypo? I've been working with this line for years and I am just not following you here.

one more thing...

rhac, your actually reverse linebreeding. youre losing all that great orange color from the urban line by breding it to normals and high yellows. at this rate your holdbacks will never resemble thier urban line parentage.

that urban gecko is beautiful. great color and a nice carrottail. something like that would be worth upwards of 250 american dollars (198.22 in EUROS) in america. the offspring however would have a hard time fetching 100 dollars.

by breeding an urban line SHTCT to a normal you lose the vivid coloration and a good amount of carrottail (not to mention the color of it).

i dunno...just my thoughts on it.

Originally Posted by diablohogs

high yellow: hyperxanthic. doubltful this is even a mutation. probably a linebred normal with fewer spots and more yellow. ive never worked with these but thats what ive gathered.

Chad,

From my past experiences with High Yellows I would say that they are in fact a mutation. Back when I was breeding Leos I had easy access to wild caught imported Leopard Geckos. In fact I would hand pick through hundreds of them weekly. Now this was back in the late 80's to mid 90's. In these imports I would occasionally find animals with a much Yellower background and cleaner spotting. Those became the foundation for my High Yellow lines (also for my Lavender line). When these animals were bred to a wild/normal import the resulting offspring were 99% wild type. Now I did have one wild type imported female that would give me High Yellow babies but I believe that is because she was a het. With the exception of that one female I would only get the High Yellow from my f2 and beyond.

Now the reason I say wild type and not normal is because the Normals now are not wild type. With very few exceptions Normals have all been bred for some sort of improved color. In doing so what we call normals today are what I was working with as High Yellow back then. This is why I think most of today’s breeders feel like you that High Yellows are simply a line bred normal. In a real sense this is true as we have essentially got rid of the wild type gene.

When was the last time any of us saw a tan and black true wild type Leo?

so as a result we have 5 different hypos (tang, line bred hypo, pastel, ray hines hypo and high yellow) in leopard geckos. than we have the combination of tang to ray hines, and apparently a second name for the ray hines hypo. pretty confusing.

Now we just need to find out which ones are using which Locus and what the different alleles are.

~Jeff C.

perhaps he is more interested in the genetics rather than the money?

implying i like beautiful orange geckos just because they are worth more? okay robin... whatever.

they are worth more because they are MORE BEAUTIFUL.

he is from europe you dork... germany to be exact... some countries are still getting in WC's.

okay cause fauna export from india is against indias regulations and theres chaos everywhere else they come from (the middle east). so i was just wondering how a guy from germany gets his hands on a wild caught leopard gecko. ive never been to europe so i wouldnt knowe what they have in the realm of wild caught specimen availablity. it was a simple question that was directed to HIM and there was no need for you to call me a "dork".

wake up. drink some coffee, crap out your cajun food and and stop with the name calling!

also that quote you posted of mine was already exoplained.

sorry i was too busy responding to this thread to notice.