Pat Kline - neutral review

aka snared99, Dart Frog Depot, and Luxurious Leopards

I was originally not going to post a review here, but after his latest message to me, I decided to go ahead. This review is neither positive nor negative, merely informational for you to draw your own opinions from. After his treatment of me (even prior to the Facebook review I left) I had no intention of doing further business with him, but I do not believe it is my place to tell others what to do, so you are welcome to draw your own conclusions.

On August 16 I sent a message to the Dart Frog Depot Facebook page inquiring about purchasing some frogs and toads. Since I work weekdays, and I am unfamiliar with the shipping process of amphibians (thus don't know if it differs from reptiles or not), I inquired about having the animals shipped to my dad or held for pick up. The intention here being, if that was an acceptable option, I'd pick up the animals after work. The seller (Pat Kline) replied stating it was no problem. I looked up the nearest hubs, both to my place of work and to my home, and decided pick up from my dad's house would be easier (closest Fedex hub to work was 30 minutes out of the way without traffic, or 40 minutes out of the way from home, again without traffic, both of which would have added more time on the road). I also felt more comfortable having someone I know hold the animals, instead of leaving them at a service center under who knows what supervision. At no time did the seller indicate there would be a problem with this, so I decided to proceed with the order.

The animals arrived at my dad's house on Friday morning. I never received the tracking number, so I don't know the exact time they did arrive. The FedEx employee did not knock on my dad's door, so he found the animals sitting outside when he took his dogs out (I understand the seller does not have control over the FedEx employees). This was around 10:30am, so I don't expect they were there for too long. He called me immediately to inform me, and I asked him to check on the animals. He said they looked fine, without actually taking them out of their cups. I got off work as soon as I could and picked up the animals at about 4pm. I looked them over before getting back in the car to get home. Everyone looked ok from the cursory look over, though I did note one frog appeared to have its leg "stuck" to the side of the cup. I thought this weird, but wanted to get them home asap so I didn't spend any more time on it at that time. By the time I got home it was around 5 pm, and I immediately pulled all the animals out to get them set up and give them a good look over. At this time I was able to confirm the one reed frog was indeed dead, though the others looked good.

In an attempt to maintain good communication, I informed the seller of this single death. I made no accusations, nor did I even ask about any compensation. I was not aware if he had an arrive alive guarantee or not, and was informing him as what I thought was my due diligence as a customer. His first response back was the accusation I hadn't moved the animals until "late night". Even taking time zones into account, it was hardly "late night", mid-evening more like. He then proceeded to essentially blame me for the death of the frog, because I had not removed them from the cups soon enough. This was my entire point in inquiring about shipping in the first place, and having the animals held because I was going to be at work! I even stated my work schedule in that initial message. I had never had frogs shipped to me before, so I was relying on him to provide me with the information I needed to know. If there was going to be a concern with the animal being held, if the frogs were going to be in danger from sitting in their cups, he should have let me know upon this initial inquiry. Instead I was told it was "no problem".

Now at this point I am not going to place full blame on the seller for the death of this frog, because sometimes things happen! However I do believe he shares partial responsibility in the matter since he had not fully informed me of the procedures that should be followed in shipping and receiving frogs and toads. To my disappointed, full blame was placed on me, and no attempts were made to rectify the situation. Here is where I decided to place a 3 star review on his Facebook page, I was otherwise going to place a 4 star review (or maybe even 5 stars if his response my notification about the dead frog was above and beyond). For the record, Facebook grades 3 stars as a "good review", I found this out when placing the review and the words popped up as I clicked the stars. I made it clear in the text portion that I was happy with the animals and how they were packed, and lowered my review based on the customer care (or lack thereof). I was under the impression frogs sold at conventions sit in their cups for days at a time, and without any other information provided to me by the seller, I did not realize there was a problem with my frogs sitting in their cups through the work day until I could get them home. Had I been informed otherwise, I would have at least postponed ordering until someone would be home to receive the animals directly, but unfortunately for that frog I was not given that information. Pat apparently took quite the offense to my review and sent me a rude message in response to it, at which point I blocked his page from messaging me any further.

To be crystal clear, I am happy with the animals I received, though I am disappointed with the one dead frog. All other animals are still alive and looking great. I think the animals were very well packed (based on my limited knowledge of shipping live animals). I was concerned the box was NOT marked "live animals" (perhaps this is why FedEx left the package outside instead of knocking on the door?), but I was otherwise happy and did not mention this concern to the seller. My discontent is based purely on customer care. In no way do I want to push people in one direction or another when deciding to deal with Pat. There are a lot of good reviews out there, so he's clearly done very well for many other people. This post is merely informational, so others can see experiences from all levels of the spectrum. In my opinion, more experienced buyers should deal with Pat, since in my experience there was some assumption on his part as to my understanding and knowledge of this process. Giving me the benefit of the doubt and offering me that additional information, even if it was "just in case" and I already knew it, potentially could have saved that frog's life, my dissatisfaction, and Pat's perfect 5 star review on his Facebook page.

Screen shots of this conversation and my review to follow.

Additional screen shots of conversation.

Final screen shots of conversation.

Screen shots of my review to his Facebook page.

Originally Posted by sorraia

you are welcome to draw your own conclusions.

My conclusion: Unless you specifically tell a seller that you know nothing about the care of the critters you are ordering I think they may assume that you know the basics about the critters you are ordering. And you stated that you already have amphibians, and told him you are a biologist.
Which means that delivery or pickup, he likely assumed that you knew that frogs should not sit around in cups and should be unpacked as quickly as possible.
You have posts here from as far back as 2013 which means you are not a total newbie. Research on your part might have showed you that you should not have let these fragile frogs sit around and that you should have made arrangements for your Dad to unpack them.
I don't think Pat is responsible here.

I do think boxes should be marked live animal.

Originally Posted by Lucille

My conclusion: Unless you specifically tell a seller that you know nothing about the care of the critters you are ordering I think they may assume that you know the basics about the critters you are ordering. And you stated that you already have amphibians, and told him you are a biologist.

1) Stated I had toads and frogs AFTER Pat said "no problem" to having the animals held for pickup or delivered to someone else.

2) If that's the conclusion he drew from that mention, then that's an ASSUMPTION on his part. I assumed the frogs would be ok in their cups until I got them home after I got off work, based on his statement of "no problem". SO.... why is his assumption ok but mine is not?

3) Since when does "biologist" mean I know everything there is to know about shipping or caring for animals? Biology is a very large field....

[quote]Which means that delivery or pickup, he likely assumed that you knew that frogs should not sit around in cups and should be unpacked as quickly as possible.[quote]

Again... he assumed. Why is his assumption ok, but mine is not? Why does he bear absolutely no responsibility in this after making his own assumptions?

You have posts here from as far back as 2013 which means you are not a total newbie. Research on your part might have showed you that you should not have let these fragile frogs sit around and that you should have made arrangements for your Dad to unpack them.

"Research" is limited. You can ask ten people and get ten different answers. I try to do as much of my own research as possible, and doing such led me to the belief, again also based on what the seller told me, that the frogs would be fine. Furthermore, my posts going back to 2013 are in regards to REPTILES, not amphibians. Amphibians are new additions to my collection as of THIS YEAR, therefore in regards to amphibians, I very much AM a newbie. Unless you're trying to say that experience with reptiles translates to experience with amphibians?

Pat made his own mistaken assumptions as you point out. Why does full responsibility fall on me, and not one him? As you can see from my post and screen shots, I do not put full blame on Pat, but I do believe he shares some of that responsibility. This is exactly what I expected to happen when I posted, and nice to know I was right. It is perfectly ok for the "big names" to make assumptions, and they are let off the hook when something goes wrong. No responsibility on them. Instead, the "no name", such as myself, bears full responsibility in anything that goes wrong. Let this be further warning to anyone reading this thread and making considerations in dealing with other people.

Here are my posts going back to 2013. Three reviews regarding transactions for ball pythons, all three from 2013, and then nothing until this thread. So if this means I'm so experienced I should have known better, then I guess the blame does fall on Pat, since ball pythons would have been perfectly fine sitting in a box all day, as long as the temperature was acceptable. Obviously that's not the case. I'm just demonstrating how ridiculous it is to make assumptions.

Originally Posted by sorraia

It is perfectly ok for the "big names" to make assumptions, and they are let off the hook when something goes wrong. No responsibility on them. Instead, the "no name", such as myself, bears full responsibility in anything that goes wrong. Let this be further warning to anyone reading this thread and making considerations in dealing with other people.

Sister, don't welcome me to draw my own conclusions and then slam me when I do so. You should have researched frog care better and you are trying to put this frog's death on Pat, and my conclusion is that is unjust.

Originally Posted by Lucille

Sister, don't welcome me to draw my own conclusions and then slam me when I do so. You should have researched frog care better and you are trying to put this frog's death on Pat, and my conclusion is that is unjust.

So welcoming you to make your own conclusions also means I can't offer my own refute to your conclusions? Or to clarify some comments you made?

And this isn't about frog care, it is about frog shipment. But like you pointed out so much, its ok for a big name seller like Pat to make assumptions about the buyer, and not provide full information, even when ASKED, but it isn't ok for a nobody like me to to take the seller's word for it. Got it.

I ordered 3 albino bullfrogs from Pat a couple months ago. I watched tracking and was there to receive them. I unpacked them right away. They were in great shape.

Had I let them set out until my dad stumbled on them and then unpacked them more than 6 hours later I would have not been surprised if their would have been problems. I've always had great service and great communication
from Pat.