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Old 03-23-2005, 12:30 AM   #11
snakegetters
I can't see those photos without your password, sorry. Can you make the album public, or change your password to something simple that you can share here?
 
Old 03-23-2005, 02:26 AM   #12
atroxman
King Cobra not feeding- any suggestions

Sorry, it should be public now, try it again.

Jeff
 
Old 03-25-2005, 12:21 AM   #13
snakegetters
My guess - not the same snake in the feeding photos. That animal eating a rat looks a bit older than your animal should be, with those head proportions. It could just be that the head looks thicker because it's in the middle of eating, but I'm not so sure. Anyhow, given that it was Bruce who sent you this pic, you know what his veracity is worth.

That animal is emaciated. That is well beyond a normal, healthy, whipcord-thin young king.
 
Old 03-25-2005, 12:43 AM   #14
Intense Herpetoculture
Is it just me or does the photo of the king feeding look like it still has it's venom glands intact? Not the same snake, looks a lot larger & older as well. The snake he sent you, well, that's a skinny snake, I am expect it looked similar to that when you received it. I've seen many kings in my day, including CBB & WC, they all looked much better then that. Also, have you tried mutiple hide boxes within the cage. Let us know how well the ratsnakes go.
 
Old 03-25-2005, 02:16 AM   #15
snakegetters
The king in the feeding photo appears to have significant scarring around its head and neck affecting the skin between its scales, as well as what looks like a fairly large head in proportion to its body. You see those proportions with older animals. That type of scarring is typical of parasite damage to animals that have been held for some time in a dirty enclosure with ticks and mites, either as WC imports or held with WC imports.

Also the color patterns don't match up between these photos. The animal in your photos appears to have a much smaller head proportionately, and brighter and clearer markings around the head and neck area. Some of this might be explained by an animal in shed, but given the known untrustworthy source of the photo I would definitely consider it worth thinking about.

I rather expected Bruce to have sent you a photo of one of my kings chowing rodents, since he's made free with my pictures before to represent snakes that he supposedly had. But I don't recognize that picture personally; that is not one of my animals. Doesn't mean somebody else won't though. I'm sure he is happy to steal photos from more than one source and claim that they are his snakes. I'd check Google images for pictures of king cobras to see if you can find that one on a website somewhere.
 
Old 03-25-2005, 09:07 AM   #16
Rakshasanyc
Warning!

Quote:
Originally Posted by atroxman
As far as the venomoid issue, my local animal control guys, which I try to keep a good working relationship with do not harass me as much because they feel safer knowing that I am a knowledgeable professional and in the event of a dropped cage or God forbid an accidental escape, no children or otherwise would (relatively) be harmed by the snake.
I haven't seen anyone else point this out yet, so I'll chime in with my $.02. At present I'm not a venomous keeper, just a guy who loves Burms, Retics and other large and potentially lethal snakes.

Do you KNOW that all your "venomoids" are actually venomoids? If these surgeries were done by amateur hacks (like most venomoid surgeries are), there is a non-trivial chance that the venom glands were left intact, or that they could have regenerated. If so, you (or one of the students watching your display) could be in for a nasty surprise if one of those snakes bites someone.

A crotalus sp. with 10% envenomation capacity could cause some nasty tissue damage -- or could send a child to the ICU. A King Cobra with 10% envenomation capacity could easily kill an average-sized adult. There have been a number of cases where "venomoids" were found capable of producing at least partial envenomation... and a few where the "venomoids" had 100% venom-producing capacity. (I'll defer to Tanith or other experts for more info on this question -- I'm sure they can provide better statistics than I can).

I'm not going to jump on you over the venomoid issue (although I have my own feelings on the subject and won't purchase snakes or supplies from anyone who deals in venomoids). However, I will point out that your "safety valve" may not be as safe as you think it is for you or for any bystanders. In my opinion, you would be better off working with hots and keeping the appropriate antivenins on hand in case of an accident. You would also be better off ensuring that NO ONE who doesn't know what they are doing gets anywhere near striking range of ANY of your snakes.
 
Old 03-25-2005, 11:58 AM   #17
snakegetters
I chatted again this year at NAVC with some of the leading reseachers and authors in the field of reptile medicine for some additional updates on the venomoid industry. According to one well known source, true regeneration would not be likely if the entire venom gland were removed by a competent professional. However, if any scrap of gland tissue was left behind, it would be quite functional. The key words here are "competent professional". According to another equally well known authority in reptile medicine, re-fissuring and regaining functional envenomation capacity after a ductectomy or a partial gland removal is a normal and expected occurrence in his personal, clinical experience.

My own veterinarian performed two adenectomies at my request on patients that had just died from other causes. We could not save them, so we continued operating on them to further our knowledge and understanding of the anatomy of these species. He stated (and I observed) that the true venom gland itself is a difficult structure both to reach and to identify. The first thing he removed was a muscle that was rooted at the base of the fang that was difficult to distinguish from the gland. Identification of the removed tissue was accomplished under the clinic's microscope by cytology using stains.

My veterinarian is not an inexperienced one. He had at that point a few years of clinical experience treating venomous reptiles specifically and more than ten years doing surgery on reptiles generally. He has been employed by the state to perform telemetry implants on indigo snakes. If a reasonably experienced veterinarian can fish around in a snake's head and remove a piece of muscle rather than the gland, I would not hold out a lot of hope for what a non veterinarian might be doing in there. A non veterinarian who did not have a clinic's resources for in-house cytology (the setup ain't cheap) would not be able to find out their mistake either, except the hard way when the snake was done healing and was able to envenomate.

He stated that the mechanical result of this muscle being removed would be the classic sunken-headed appearance and a decreased ability to envenomate, and perhaps no ability to envenomate for some time during healing. I have seen a number of cases where I believe this to be a likely scenario. Eg, the animal presented the sunken headed appearance (in an elapid no less) but had the ability to envenomate especially if it chewed vigorously. Contact Ray Hunter (his information is available here if you search on his name) for more specific details and documentation of the snakes he has seen presenting like this.

I'm sorry, but the evidence suggests that handling a venomoid that was not done by a properly licensed and experienced veterinarian is rather like having your parachute packed and serviced before a jump by a kid who works at McDonald's flipping burgers. There are perhaps a small handful of veterinarians who are qualified to do this operation in such a way that regeneration or re-fissuring would not be a serious possibility. Most of them will not do it for the private sector. As a consequence, the market is dominated by greedy, inhumane amateur hackers who do not use appropriate procedures either for the snake's health or yours.

Another observation is that the people who deal in venomoids tend to be the real bottom of the barrel in this industry. They are already well known as the Bad Guys for what they are willing to do to make a profit, and that comes out pretty clearly on the BOI. Some searching and reading will reveal the way that these people do business. Eg, stealing other people's photos to misrepresent their animals. Trying to cheat their suppliers by claiming days later that snakes arrived DOA, then being unable to produce the bodies because they had actually died under botched surgery conditions. Sending dead or dying snakes with the stitches still in, and refusing a refund. History of arrest on animal cruelty charges. Read it all right here on the BOI. Even the dealings they have in nonvenomous reptiles tend to be horrendous, with a lot of customer complaints. This is a good place to do some homework before you decide to buy from someone you don't know.

These are not nice people. Even if you don't care about the ethical aspects of how they profit from torturing and mutilating snakes, it isn't a good idea to do business with them unless you have some KY handy to make your screwing more comfortable. If you absolutely must have a venomoid, buy a healthy adult captive bred animal from a reputable breeder and go find a real veterinarian who will do the procedure appropriately and humanely. But I won't sell you anything of mine.
 
Old 03-25-2005, 04:11 PM   #18
psilocybe
Quote:
Originally Posted by atroxman
Ok, I'll agree with you. He has been performing the surgery for "I think" around 20 yrs, under clinical conditions. You are correct he is not a vet, though he is very knowledgeable and good at what he does.

But, we are getting off subject. The real issue here is a poor snakes and friends life. The Cobra is in an appropriate sized cage with multiple hiding places and a small mounted tree to climb on.

Jeff
You are admitting to knowingly commisioning an unqualified person (non-veterinarian) to perform illegal procedures on animals which constitutes animal abuse and cruelty. That in effect makes you an accessory to criminal behavior. I would be very careful about my future dealings with Mr. Richey if I were you.
 
Old 03-25-2005, 04:13 PM   #19
psilocybe
Oh, and to clarify, "being careful about future dealings" translates to "don't do business with".
 
Old 03-30-2005, 06:56 PM   #20
atroxman
King Cobra not feeding- any suggestions

Well I just tried a Texas rat snake with no success, I'll Waite a few more days and try feeding her again. You all are correct in stating that venomoids are not a sure thing. A 2% chance of duct regrowth exists with all adenectomy procedures. Simply put the venomoid surgery is not an absolute in any case. With educational animals venomoids are used quite frequently. Even many of your favorite television herp entertainers use venomoid snakes that they place under a rock or tree and then pretend to find a great catch. Haven't you ever wondered why these shows are almost always able to find nice big specimens of rare and difficult snakes? The object is to educate with as little risk to the handler and audience as possible.
 

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