Pat Kline - neutral review

how long were the frogs actually in the container was this overnight shipping?

Originally Posted by Lucille

You should have researched frog care better...

Since you apparently know more about frogs (since you're judging someone else's knowledge), please inform us how sitting in a deli cup for a few hours killed this frog. Why did it only kill one and not the others?

Originally Posted by MichaelS

I ordered 3 albino bullfrogs from Pat a couple months ago. I watched tracking and was there to receive them. I unpacked them right away. They were in great shape.

Had I let them set out until my dad stumbled on them and then unpacked them more than 6 hours later I would have not been surprised if their would have been problems. I've always had great service and great communication
from Pat.

Which is exactly what Pat should have told me instead of saying "No problem" when I said I would be working and asked about the package being held for shipping or by another person. Also Pat did not give me a tracking number to watch, as you can see from the screen shots I shared.

Originally Posted by Serafim

how long were the frogs actually in the container was this overnight shipping?

Overnight shipping, but I don't know when they were placed in the cups or delivered to FedEx. Pat did not give me the tracking number.

Originally Posted by hurreckon

Since you apparently know more about frogs (since you're judging someone else's knowledge), please inform us how sitting in a deli cup for a few hours killed this frog. Why did it only kill one and not the others?

Thank you, and this is a good point, and something I've pondered on as well (though have not included in my information). The remaining animals (7 other tree frogs, 1 pacman, and 4 toads) are doing great.

Originally Posted by sorraia

Which is exactly what Pat should have told me instead of saying "No problem" when I said I would be working and asked about the package being held for shipping or by another person. Also Pat did not give me a tracking number to watch, as you can see from the screen shots I shared.

*Held for pickup

Originally Posted by sorraia

Giving me the benefit of the doubt and offering me that additional information, even if it was "just in case" and I already knew it, potentially could have saved that frog's life, my dissatisfaction, and Pat's perfect 5 star review on his Facebook page.

Why is he to blame for your lack of forethought?

Every seller I have made a purchase from has been more than happy to answer my questions if I asked them. Did you make any effort to inquire? Why is it a terrible assumption on his part to think you had at least some basic understanding of shipping a critter and not to leave it sitting in a deli cup?

Did you tell him when you had it shipped to your father's house that the animals were going to be sitting, waiting, all day? He makes it clear that he thought you shipping it to a person meant they were going to be removed from the box sooner.

It seems to be your lack of initiative here, your lack of asking pertinent questions.

I would never leave an animal sitting in a deli cup for god knows how long (depending on when he packed them the day prior, by the time you unboxed them, they would have been in those cups for anywhere from ~18 hours to ~24 hours)- no food or water, no temperature or humidity regulation, no one to check them properly the moment they arrived to insure they were okay.

There is no way to know whether it died in transit, or died sitting in that box after it arrived. From the sounds of it, they were given only a cursory glance, by someone who has little to no knowledge of their care. They could have at least, at the least, been transferred into sterilite tubs with water and clean paper towels.

When you didn't receive the tracking information, why didn't you contact him and ask again for it? Do something, anything, to take some responsibility.

I am not surprised that he would put you on a do not sell to list.

As for why one could die and the others be okay; all animals experience and react to stress differently, even under the same conditions. Some are just weaker, or more prone to stress in general, regardless of any precautions taken. This occurs in mammals, reptiles, and fish as well, it is not remotely unique in this situation.

I find it far more interesting and concerning that you fob all responsibility onto the seller, and that your justification is "he didn't assume I needed my hand held." If someone came to me, telling me they have XYZ critters already and were a biologist, it would be pretty damned reasonable to expect them to have some knowledge already, or to ask questions to fill in the gaps of what they didn't know.

I will fault the seller for not providing tracking as promised, and for not appropriately labeling the box as live animals, but I will fault you far more for the reasons outlined above. And no, these are not equal faults.

I've sent a link of this thread to the seller.

Also, just so you know, you're required to use your full, real name on the BOI. Is your name Nicole Housel, or Nicole Vivian?

Originally Posted by senusenu

Why is he to blame for your lack of forethought?

Every seller I have made a purchase from has been more than happy to answer my questions if I asked them. Did you make any effort to inquire? Why is it a terrible assumption on his part to think you had at least some basic understanding of shipping a critter and not to leave it sitting in a deli cup?

Did you tell him when you had it shipped to your father's house that the animals were going to be sitting, waiting, all day? He makes it clear that he thought you shipping it to a person meant they were going to be removed from the box sooner.

It seems to be your lack of initiative here, your lack of asking pertinent questions.

As I have already stated in my original reply, as well as in the screen shots, I did ask. I stated I would be working, and asked about having the package held for pick up or sent to another problem. Don't you think the question about having a package held for pick up would have indicated the animals would NOT be immediately removed? I did ask, it was not a lack of initiative, it was misplaced trust that the seller would provide me with full answers to my questions given the information provided (i.e. I work weekdays). Lesson learned, don't trust any sellers, no matter their reputation, because they're probably holding out on you.

I would never leave an animal sitting in a deli cup for god knows how long (depending on when he packed them the day prior, by the time you unboxed them, they would have been in those cups for anywhere from ~18 hours to ~24 hours)- no food or water, no temperature or humidity regulation, no one to check them properly the moment they arrived to insure they were okay.

Animals aren't even fed in the first 24 hours after shipment (with few exceptions) due to stress. Why is food a concern here when taking that into consideration? And as you can see from my review, I was under the mistaken understanding that frogs can sit in those cups, considering all the numerous conventions out there where I've seen frogs sitting in cups. Just because YOU never would do something doesn't mean everyone else knows that information. You've been around for how long? And you never made a mistake or had a misunderstanding? I wish I were that perfect. Sorry I'm not.

There is no way to know whether it died in transit, or died sitting in that box after it arrived. From the sounds of it, they were given only a cursory glance, by someone who has little to no knowledge of their care. They could have at least, at the least, been transferred into sterilite tubs with water and clean paper towels.

And it would have been even worse had the animals been held for pick up, which again the seller said "no problem" to. But that doesn't matter. He's got the big name so he's blameless in everything.

When you didn't receive the tracking information, why didn't you contact him and ask again for it? Do something, anything, to take some responsibility.

Oops, made another assumption here - I assumed an email would be coming since he had my email address. But since I'm the only one who is responsible for assumptions, that's a grievous sin.

I am not surprised that he would put you on a do not sell to list.

Is that really supposed to bother me? Why would I want to do business again with someone like this?

As for why one could die and the others be okay; all animals experience and react to stress differently, even under the same conditions. Some are just weaker, or more prone to stress in general, regardless of any precautions taken. This occurs in mammals, reptiles, and fish as well, it is not remotely unique in this situation.

I find it far more interesting and concerning that you fob all responsibility onto the seller, and that your justification is "he didn't assume I needed my hand held." If someone came to me, telling me they have XYZ critters already and were a biologist, it would be pretty damned reasonable to expect them to have some knowledge already, or to ask questions to fill in the gaps of what they didn't know.

Actually your interpretation here is quite wrong. I have not "fobbed" all responsibility. In fact, multiple times I have said "shared responsibility". That means BOTH of us have some blame in this situation. I'll acknowledge where I went wrong but I also refuse to believe the seller had no wrong in this. It is interesting to me how people are SO quick to ignore those faults on the big name, while placing practically all blame on the nobody, and ignoring any redeeming qualities, such as where the nobody DOES accept responsibility. As for having xyz critters.... that doesn't mean the buyer knows a damned thing about shipping. Same with being a biologist. And as stated previously, biology is a very large field. These are again assumptions on the sellers part, but because he has a big name, it doesn't matter. I'd reason a bet that if the roles were reversed and I had pulled the same stunts that Pat did, I'd still be the one on the chopping block.

Originally Posted by senusenu

I've sent a link of this thread to the seller.

Also, just so you know, you're required to use your full, real name on the BOI. Is your name Nicole Housel, or Nicole Vivian?

Are you a mod too?

Originally Posted by sorraia

Don't you think the question about having a package held for pick up would have indicated the animals would NOT be immediately removed? I did ask, it was not a lack of initiative, it was misplaced trust that the seller would provide me with full answers to my questions given the information provided (i.e. I work weekdays). Lesson learned, don't trust any sellers, no matter their reputation, because they're probably holding out on you.

When you decided to send them to a person instead of being held at a hub, it was reasonable to think that said person would be able to give them some care or remove them. Many sellers wouldn't agree to shipping if an animal is going to be sitting at the hub for that long either, due to their live arrival gaurantees generally only applying for the first hour immediately following the first delivery attempt or arrival at the hub.

Originally Posted by sorraia

Animals aren't even fed in the first 24 hours after shipment (with few exceptions) due to stress. Why is food a concern here when taking that into consideration? And as you can see from my review, I was under the mistaken understanding that frogs can sit in those cups, considering all the numerous conventions out there where I've seen frogs sitting in cups.

It was a general list of conditions, not an expectation. Whether or not to feed an insect or fruit eating animal food soon after moving them into their new enclosure is going to depend on a lot of things. I have snakes, which would clearly not even attempt to eat on the first day (or even first couple of weeks). Other animals with faster metabolisms will have other requirements.

Regardless, you have glossed over the necessity of water, for an amphibian, even if it is nothing more than a gentle spray to keep humidity up.

The frogs may not be sitting in cups for that long with no food, they're probably perfectly fine in that situation. They will still need water.

It isn't about perfection, stop it with that strawman nonsense. It's about common sense and knowing even basic care for a critter type you apparently already own.

Originally Posted by sorraia

He's got the big name so he's blameless in everything.
...
It is interesting to me how people are SO quick to ignore those faults on the big name, while placing practically all blame on the nobody, and ignoring any redeeming qualities, such as where the nobody DOES accept responsibility.

Sorry, no idea who this person is. Never heard of them before. Also, there's plenty of "big names" on this board who get called to task.

Originally Posted by sorraia

I assumed an email would be coming since he had my email address. But since I'm the only one who is responsible for assumptions, that's a grievous sin.

He should have sent the tracking information. That's not under dispute. Did you request it again once you realized he hadn't sent it? The persecution complex is quite unnecessary.

Originally Posted by sorraia

As for having xyz critters.... that doesn't mean the buyer knows a damned thing about shipping. Same with being a biologist. And as stated previously, biology is a very large field.

Nobody says you should know literally everything, in the history of ever. Common sense should tell you that amphibians are more sensitive. It should also tell you that leaving an animal sitting in a box for that amount of time can be very unhealthy.


In your own screenshots, he says that by sending it to your father's house, he thought they would be removed from the cups sooner. He also, albeit very briefly, explains to you that animals do get care during shows. (Apparently this classifies as a "tantrum" to you.)

No seller is going to replace a dead animal that was left sitting in a deli cup for that amount of time.

Originally Posted by sorraia

Are you a mod too?

Nope, but feel free to alert one if you wish.

It's considered good manners to invite the seller to come defend themselves and give their side of the story. Generally, Lucille does that before anyone else, but as she didn't state she did (that I recall at least), I did so.

As to your name- that is a requirement of the website itself.

Rules for Posting on the BOI <-- REQUIRED READING!! (updated 12/30/09)

FULL NAMES are required for each post you make on the BOI. Failure to comply with this rule will subject your post to the probabilty of being deleted.