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Old 10-29-2004, 08:10 PM   #11
GinoInDaBronx
banning

Tanith, you were saying that this rusty fool has said nothing abusive???? Check out his last two posts.

rusty, you just aren't man enough to keep a hot snake. Let's face it-some of us can do this (everyone else on here), and some of us are leopard gecko girls, like you (rusty the bowhunter).

Look in your pants-we already know that it is tiny and pathetic-that is why you want a 'void.Try making up for your...cough... 'inadequacies' in a way that doesn't involve torturing innocent animals.
 
Old 10-29-2004, 11:36 PM   #12
snakegetters
Well, yes, *now* this individual has stepped over the line into being abusive and inappropriate. You're going there as well, Gino, so watch it. Just having a pro venomoid opinion is not sufficient cause to ban anyone, but it may be cause to lock a thread if the people involved in it are unable to keep their tempers and refrain from abusive language and personal attacks.

Which this individual has not. So it should be obvious here which side has the more mature outlook and the better reasoned and researched viewpoint. We need to keep the moral high ground and present the facts without making personal attacks.

People who advocate doing illegal things may well be banned; that is against the rules because it can expose the board owner to all kinds of problems. Eg, anyone claiming to perform home venomoid "surgery" in an illegal and inhumane manner could certainly expect action to be taken.

People who endorse or keep venomoids won't be made welcome on this forum, because the regulars here are responsible and ethical keepers who do not condone animal mutilation for personal pleasure. But unwelcome does not mean banned. It just means they might as well go away unless they particularly enjoy hanging around a place where they will be held in utter contempt.
 
Old 10-29-2004, 11:59 PM   #13
snakegetters
Quote:
Originally posted by bowhunter
As far as the pain they must endure, and the ethics of the procedure: veterinarians do ear cropping, dew claw removal, tail docking, and feline claw removals all the time.
All of those procedures are illegal in the UK, and many if not most vets in the US agree with their European colleagues and refuse to perform them. Inflicting pain and mutilation on an animal merely for human cosmetic reasons is very difficult to justify ethically.

If you are not able to keep an animal healthy and happy without mutilating it, perhaps you should not keep that kind of animal at all. Ball pythons make great pets, they come in all kinds of pretty color morphs, and you don't have to cut pieces off of them to keep them safely in your house. Keeping dangerous wild animals should be left to zoos or to fully qualified private keepers with professional level skills and tools.



Quote:
Many of these procedures can and are performed without anesthesia. At least the snakes are anesthetised.
Surgery without anesthesia is animal cruelty. And that really is the scenario for most venomoids that are produced; they are made by amateurs who do not have access to the controlled drugs necessary to give anesthesia and pain relief. Reptiles can be paralyzed by the simple expedient of putting the in the refrigerator. This renders them unable to move, but fully conscious and feeling.


Quote:
BTW: The above post was posted by an overzealous friend, but it is a bit odd that you want to ban anyone with a differing opinion.
I find it suspicious when people claim that "friends" are using their Fauna accounts to post things. Anyone can get their own Fauna account just by asking for it. Why hand out your password to a "friend" who might post things you don't agree with and make you look silly? Usually when people tell this story, it's because they want to backpedal or disclaim responsibility for something they said.

The reason that people are talking about a ban has to do with the history of venomoid discussions on the Net. Any time the subject comes up, it is likely to get extremely heated and to cause problems on the forum. Anyone can basically drop a nuclear grade bomb on a venomous forum just by posting a pro-venomoid opinion. The fallout lasts for weeks and it tends to be a huge mess. So we sometimes get trolls who enjoy causing this kind of trouble pretending to be pro-venomoid just for fun. If you post a pro-venomoid opinion, you tend to look like a troll. We do ban trolls, but we don't ban people who just have opinions. It's just hard to tell which one you are at the moment. And in some respects it doesn't matter because the negative effect on the forum is the same.

You've gotten the factual information you asked for. I hope it is of use to you. I don't know how to make this any more clear. Venomoiders are not welcome on venomous forums, and unless you are masochistic enough to enjoy being hated and held in total contempt as an animal abuser by everyone else in the group, this is not going to be a fun place to spend your time.
 
Old 10-30-2004, 11:02 AM   #14
Mustangrde1
Many venomous keepers seriously have altered their houses or at least one room to be completely escape proof and invested large amounts of time and money in the remodeling of the room and cages.

If we can use the State of Florida for an example as to the degree one must put into learning and education they must obtain before being allowed to own a venomous reptile I think it will show some what of the cost some venomous keepers must face. The Law in Florida is in brief that a person must have no less than 1 year not to be less than 1000 hours in the “Care, Feeding, Handling, Husbandry of the species for which the permit is sought.” With this in mind most persons who wish to go through the process and obtain their Venomous Reptiles Permit” VRL” do so as volunteers with persons who own the species that the trainee wishes some day own. As volunteers by nature are NOT paid for their time and efforts it is done at the expense of the trainee.

If one was to look at the potential cost for this training it shows a very high level of commitment and personal cost. Factoring in that the average pet shop employee is making for sake of argument $7.00 and hour then over the training period of 1000 hours it equates to $7,000.00 of the trainees time. Factoring in the for other expenses such as gas and food during training of another $1,000.00 and then looking at the high probability that the trainee purchases literature and or does web research we can easily factor in another $2,000.00 in time and publications.

Now we can not forget caging, Venomous reptiles require locking escape proof caging and most keepers go with high dollar cages for piece of mind such as Vision, Neodesha, Precision and the like. The price on these cages and other caging needs can easily reach $1,000.00. So we are looking at a potential out of pocket expense of $11,000.00 for that first venomous snake.

Ok so some of you are saying no way. Well think about it how, much are you paid an hour at work? Or how much have you spent on caging or reptile related products and books? It is a very real number when factoring it all in to account. That is one hell of an expensive first snake and I didn’t even factor in the animals cost or actual cost for permits.

In some cases however people are seen doing highly dangerous acts with very dangerous animals. Many of the acts you see on television or in a circus or other amusement arena are under highly controlled circumstances. There are many safety protocols and large crews on hand for added safety. These are shows designed to gain ratings or bring in the general public for profit.

Working with dangerous species be they venomous reptiles large constrictor, Varanus species, Crocodilians or even big cats or other large carnivores does require much more attention to safety and a seriousness not associated with species that are considered less dangerous to humans. Working with all the above animals is never and should never be allowed by novice persons with no experience in the nature or habits of the animals involved. All animal have certain predictable traits within the species but each animal’s temperament and attitude can vary greatly within the same species including siblings / clutch mates. This is where training comes in with experienced persons in their prospective fields or hobbies.

If you look at driving for instance it is required that a person must obtain a license and pass a test under supervision. Driving is a dangerous activity and thus is regulated. Venomous reptile keeping is becoming more and more regulated. Much like other activities that are precieved as dangerous I believe that some regulations are needed to insure both the handlers and other parties safety.

So now here is a few questions for you now that you have read all the information posted from myself and others in this thread.

Can you honestly say that venomoids are truly safer then a hot?

Is there any valid reason to have a venomoid vs a hot?

Is the surgery needed for any reason ?

Would not proper trainning and safety standards be a much better solution then an outright ban?

If you want to ban one species then why not ban them all?

With direct evidance there are far more dangerous animals kept and more dangerous items and activities in life should we just start banning them to protect us from our own stupidity or vanity?

Where do you draw the line as to what is safe or not ?

What gives one person the right to tell another they cant do it because it may potentially be dangerous?
 
Old 10-31-2004, 10:35 AM   #15
romad119
I personally would never keep anything hot. The formentioned example of quality training etc is very good, but the are that concerns me is the guy who pays $100 to get a cobra off of KS or some place and has no clue on venemous anaimals. I think eveyone should be licensed to a degree and that teh sale/trade needs to be regulated pretty good.

How many times does someone buy a non venemous animal and can't keep it properly? I am for regulation of these animals but not for complete banning.
 
Old 10-31-2004, 10:58 AM   #16
Mustangrde1
The problem with regulations is, You can over regualte yourself right out of something. Then there is the issue of who will enforce them and how.

People still keep animals Illegally, people still kill animals from lack of husbandry and some of the worse offenders ive seen are petshops which are checked and inspected. Yet with reptiles the officers seem to blow it off.

So how do we properly regulate it and make sure the enforcement is just and not opinion. By opinion I have heard some officers say that the Asian Vine snake is legal to keep yet others say its hot so you can not. There has to be a solid structure in place for regulations.

I can look at a boa and say its emanciated and someone else may say no its not it needs weight but its ok. I can go on for hours about it but until someone comes out with clear guidelines the dangers of over regulation or over zelous officers can do more harm then good.

Florida has a good system in place and is a good role for others but we still need work
 
Old 12-31-2004, 09:30 PM   #17
Rattlesnake
I couldn't have stated it any better myself.

"Performing or ownership of an altered venomous reptile is not for the love of the animal. It is however human lust. Humanity has a tendency to lust for things and because of lust they are willing to alter it for their taste, needs or ego. If a person truly loves an animal they love it for what it is, in its true natural condition."

I agree with you 100% Scott.
 
Old 12-31-2004, 09:43 PM   #18
Lucille
As a Texan, I like to compare hots with guns. Mishandled weapons, like mishandled venomous snakes, can cause accidents, sometimes deadly ones.

But a safely kept gun, just like a safely kept snake, is NOT going to all of a sudden with no warning, come out and do damage. Education and common sense go a long way toward making both items safer.

Venomoids are a different story. Having a venomoid is like playing Russian Roulette and is, IMHO, just idiotically risky.
 
Old 02-25-2005, 03:39 PM   #19
redknee
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowhunter
Hello, I am new to this forum, and I have been seeing a lot of negative response to venomoids. Personally, I feel that it should be illegal to keep hot reptiles. I believe that the only types of venomous snakes that should be legal to keep are venomoids. I feel that hot snakes are not only a risk to their owner, but to the general public. Accidents cannot be forseen, and they can and do occur. For this reason only venomoids should be legal to own as an extra security measure. Duct/gland removal, when done properly and with proper anesthetics, does not alter the snakes quality of life. How can the absence of venom negatively effect a captive snake?

-Rusty
I dont agree with you one bit im afraid i hate the idea of venomoids if anyone is going to keep venomous snakes which i think if they have the right attitude and respect for these creatures then go for it. it is important to the species as a majority of venomous keepers are experienced in this field. i cant see the point of venomoids, if ur going to keep a hot snake then why have its vemon glands removed get a boa instead. it is unnatural and should be outlawed imo. ive known people who have kept venomous snakes for over 10 years and have never had any accidents because they have RESPECT for these animals which is the number one rule when keeping venomous snakes.

in my opinion why have a venomous snake if you dont want it to be vemonous
 
Old 07-01-2005, 01:20 PM   #20
Osiris X
I agree with you. Pitbulls are dangerous to the public, I think we should cut out their teeth too, just to be safe.
 

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