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Old 05-14-2004, 11:24 PM   #131
snakekid13
True true, so your saying that some non proffesionals try and do venamoid surgeries? If thats what your saying thats just plane wrong i dont care what anyone says. Like i recently said i hate people.
 
Old 05-15-2004, 09:15 AM   #132
Mustangrde1
Eric. I am not saying it im stating it as a fact. It not only is a shame it is a crime. The problem is Law enforcement in many cases is not sure who actually has jurisdiction and also is overwhelmed with other cases.

There are things as we can do though. First is write all Website owners, Reptile show promoters, Magazine editors / owners and vendors and DEMAND they stop allowing these animals to be sold on there site without proper proof and documentation of LEGAL surgery performed by a licensed Vet. Secound inform them we WILL NOT purchase anything from them or thier site until they stop allowing ILLEGALLY altered animals to be sold on thier site. Third write and DEMAND action from law enforcement in the state where we know these ILLEGAL mutilators are operating.

I have a petetion in the works that very soon will be out and help Web owners verify the animals they do allow to be sold on their sites are legally altered and it will also give law enforcement the teeth they need to prosicute these people. It is not a knew law but will be a amendment to current laws.

Here is a link to it. Remember its not complete yet as some wording has been changed. Im expecting it back from the lawyer helping me very shortly in its finished draft and ready for everyones signing.

http://novogate.com/exco/thread.php?...threadid=57173
 
Old 05-15-2004, 10:06 AM   #133
snakegetters
My experience with hybrids is that they can be good or bad. Some hybrids appear to show what dog breeders refer to as "hybrid vigor" where these animals are bigger, stronger, healthier and longer lived than either parent animal. Some hybrid crocodilians at Samutprakarn in Thailand definitely bear this out, as do Eastern diamondback-canebrake crosses which occur both naturally and in captivity.

I am also constantly impressed by the health and vigor of my two hybrids, a copperhead-cottonmouth (produced by Mardi Snipes on purpose) and a massassauga - Western diamondback (produced by another keeper entirely by accident). Both seem to be faster, stronger, more alert and more eager to feed than either parent species. Both are also significantly more aggressive, which is something also observed in the canebrake-EDB crosses.

I think that when you take snakes that are really too far apart to match well genetically you can have problems with the offspring. That's when you will see some weaknesses and shortened life spans. But when they are relatively closely related, you are more likely to see hybrid vigor.

Part of my own interest in hybrids is venom heritability and establishing how far apart species really are cladistically. It's not just that I'm breeding to feed the latest pet craze and my wallet. That I agree is potentially damaging. I'm not sure any hybrids I produced would ever leave my personal collection, except maybe to a few trusted friends on the condition that they never be resold.

Seamus has legitimate concerns about making messes in the gene pool, and most people who freely produce hybrids to feed the popular pet market should heed some of those warnings. But I don't feel that it is abusive to the animals. They don't know or care that they are halfbreeds, and as long as they remain clearly labelled in the hands of responsible keepers, they are unlikely to cause any problems.

And then there was the movie about the giant supersnake that was the result of crossing a king cobra and an Eastern diamondback. In the movie it looked pretty impressive, but in real life it would have just been one fat king cobra. LOL
 
Old 05-15-2004, 10:27 AM   #134
Mustangrde1
What occurs in Nature is Naturally occurring and probably has been for a long time. Such as Gaboon X Rhino , Yellow rat x Everglades intergrades and Cane x Eastern and so on. If it occurs naturally I do not have a problem with it at all as I beleive it is a form of evolution. But to cross animals that would never meet or breed in the wild for pure monetary gain just doesnt settle good with me. I would love to see a picture of a Cane x Eastern or the real deal slitherring down a country road. I just love the differances in true wild animals I still get excited even at seeing Nerodia in there many diffrent patterns and looks.
 
Old 05-15-2004, 11:31 AM   #135
snakekid13
I'd like to see that copperheadXcottonmouth i bet thats very pretty. I understand Mustangs point with them not even being close to each other but if i didnt do that ex. kenyan X rosy i would only sell them to VERY good friends because i was thinking last night if hybrids become real common it'll be hard to find purebread animals. Thanks and happy herping.
 
Old 05-16-2004, 01:34 AM   #136
Seamus Haley
Quote:
Seamus has legitimate concerns about making messes in the gene pool, and most people who freely produce hybrids to feed the popular pet market should heed some of those warnings. But I don't feel that it is abusive to the animals
I don't think it's abusive to the individual animals (usually)... Just more dangerous to entire captive populations. A venomoid animal, while having been subjected to something very negative, is the only animal affected by the procedure. If bred, it won't produce venomoid offspring. Hybrids are little time-bombs, one slip by someone who doesn't know better and the entire captive population becomes questionable.

Quote:
massassauga - Western diamondback
Which raises an interesting question... What's the venom composition like on that animal? Does it display the full toxicity of both parent species (making it very very very nasty indeed)? Does it take after one or the other? Are the individual toxins found in lesser densities than would be the case for either parent species?

Clearly it's a concern, especially for animals which may be closely related on an evolutionary scale but miles apart when it comes to toxicity and which antivenin is required. When tagged (If tagged) it might make a fairly substantial difference.

Quote:
Eastern diamondback-canebrake crosses which occur both naturally and in captivity
Which really just means that there might be some value to potential taxonomic revision. A species is defined as a naturally interbreeding group of animals, for far too long taxonomy was the work of individuals who had never even seen a live specimin of the animals they were describing. The modern emphasis that has shifted to field work (natural history), lab work focusing on DNA and some work with fossil chains seems to be a very positive step towards bettering our ideas of which animals are exactly which. The old scale counts and tendon length still has it's place to be certain, but there needs to be something balancing out the scale. The animals won't care of course, but names are important.

Heck, look what has happened (and been mostly accepted) to florida and brooks kings... Two species were found to have a wide natural zone of intergradiation; became subspecific in their designations.

At no point will I ever agree with venomoid production, nor do I see hybrids as being of greater concern... However both matters as they relate to captive populations and the way the general public views the hobby, the industry and the science are of importance and neither should be neglected or overlooked in favor of the other.
 
Old 05-16-2004, 10:28 AM   #137
Mustangrde1
Taxonomy errrrrr Can we say NAJA........
 
Old 05-16-2004, 03:42 PM   #138
snakekid13
Today at the reptile show i met the guy that tried to catch the cobra in dallas. He is actually a nice guy and definatly knows his reptiles. But his trapping skills arent too skilled.
 
Old 05-16-2004, 04:39 PM   #139
snakegetters
Quote:
Originally posted by snakekid13
Today at the reptile show i met the guy that tried to catch the cobra in dallas. He is actually a nice guy and definatly knows his reptiles. But his trapping skills arent too skilled.
You have no basis to criticize Darryl until you have tried trapping a snake under the same circumstances. He is a skilled professional with many years of experience.
 
Old 05-16-2004, 10:50 PM   #140
snakekid13
Well I just dont understand why he would put sticky pads around a mouse that doesnt make much sense to me. I wasnt critisizing him i was commenting on what it appeared to be i wouldnt criticize him i have alot of respect for him after meating him today. It wasnt supposed to come out rudely it just seemed like maybe their could be some better ways to trap a snake.
 

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