Mile High Herps (Susan Newman) - IBD Infected Snake

I read that thread before the purchase. But I chalked it up to a mis-sexed animal. That was definitely an error in judgment on my part.

I believe that my reputation and credentials speak for themselves as far as the accuracy of anything I state here. However, my offer shall remain for an independent and impartial third party here to be privy to most information with a written agreement that it is used for verification purposes only and not to be made public as much is key to the legal action in progress.

Originally Posted by BWSmith

I read that thread before the purchase. But I chalked it up to a mis-sexed animal. That was definitely an error in judgment on my part.

I would have agreed with your initial assumption as well. The similarities of not addressing the problem on that thread until others became involved and what has been posted on your side thus far maybe noteworthy

Originally Posted by BWSmith

I believe that my reputation and credentials speak for themselves as far as the accuracy of anything I state here. However, my offer shall remain for an independent and impartial third party here to be privy to most information with a written agreement that it is used for verification purposes only and not to be made public as much is key to the legal action in progress.

I am absolutely not questioning your reputation. I for one appreciate the fact that you would not withhold this type of information. This is a serious charge and she should be given the opportunity to respond and add her side regardless of someone’s reputation or credentials.

I certainly did not mean to imply that you were. I would also like to hear any response on her part. Particularly since the only reply I have gotten from her is after the first email informing her of the situation where she stated "The boa I sold you (known as Mattie) was in perfect health when she left my home", which pathology reports prove this to be false.

Originally Posted by BWSmith

I believe that my reputation and credentials speak for themselves as far as the accuracy of anything I state here. However, my offer shall remain for an independent and impartial third party here to be privy to most information with a written agreement that it is used for verification purposes only and not to be made public as much is key to the legal action in progress.

Feel free to send anything to me. Part of my real world job is protecting confidentiality and I am well aquainted with the legal system. You have my word nothing will be made public.

info@dsreptiles.com

I am curious. What was the snakes body weight? Did she have good body weight/length? I am wondering if the problem feeding her was "long term" or more recent. Thanx.

Originally Posted by Casey Hulse

I am curious. What was the snakes body weight? Did she have good body weight/length? I am wondering if the problem feeding her was "long term" or more recent. Thanx.

If you return to page 4 of this thread, I have a rather long post with the animal's history (set apart as a quote). Included is the length and weight upon arrival and the weight again when antibiotic treatment began. She was a bit on the thin side, but not enough to be overly worried about. I chalked this up to Susan feeding a 5' snake medium rats, whereas I would have preferred it be on large.

I am not a boid person, not for a couple of decades anyway. From what I know of IBD, it is exceedingly likely that this snake was infected when you got it. From your own intimate knowledge of everything that you did with this animal since you acquired it, I have no doubts as to how certain you are. Wandering a little bit off of your specific situation, and more just to get your opinion since you are now saddled with this problem, let me pose what I know and a question. Recomended quarantine is 3-6 months in much of the literature, although without bloodwork, a brief three months would seem to be tempting the devil. Other literature suggests that the time frame from exposure to manifestation can be as little as one month, or possibly up to one year. While your situation was fortunately manifested relatively quickly, and well within your quarantine protocols, thus leaving little room for doubt, do you know of any standards within the hobby or industry that might lend themselves to a time window of responsibility? ie. Your case is strong because of it only taking 71 days, and your quarantine procedures support your conclusions. But if it had been 120-150 days, your case would lose merit, although many arrows would still point back to Susan. With lab work costing around $200, is that a likely way to go with newly arrived animals where the value of the animal, and/or the collection it is going into, would justify the expense? It seems that Susan is trying to hide behind the time line, with "it was healthy when it left here", which is kind of lame in ignoring the nature of IBD. Should this go to court, besides your having to decide to take on the expense of recovering $915 (?), and her deciding to bear the cost of defending herself vs. settlement, I am sure that both the time-line and decisions to not have lab-work done sooner will be raised. Trust that I am finding no fault what-so-ever with your actions, but her attorney will certainly sing a more sour note to you. If nothing else, the heads-up to all who may have had contact with her, or need an IBD reminder, was much needed.

Originally Posted by Chamco

I am not a boid person, not for a couple of decades anyway. From what I know of IBD, it is exceedingly likely that this snake was infected when you got it. From your own intimate knowledge of everything that you did with this animal since you acquired it, I have no doubts as to how certain you are. Wandering a little bit off of your specific situation, and more just to get your opinion since you are now saddled with this problem, let me pose what I know and a question. Recomended quarantine is 3-6 months in much of the literature, although without bloodwork, a brief three months would seem to be tempting the devil. Other literature suggests that the time frame from exposure to manifestation can be as little as one month, or possibly up to one year. While your situation was fortunately manifested relatively quickly, and well within your quarantine protocols, thus leaving little room for doubt, do you know of any standards within the hobby or industry that might lend themselves to a time window of responsibility? ie. Your case is strong because of it only taking 71 days, and your quarantine procedures support your conclusions. But if it had been 120-150 days, your case would lose merit, although many arrows would still point back to Susan. With lab work costing around $200, is that a likely way to go with newly arrived animals where the value of the animal, and/or the collection it is going into, would justify the expense? It seems that Susan is trying to hide behind the time line, with "it was healthy when it left here", which is kind of lame in ignoring the nature of IBD. Should this go to court, besides your having to decide to take on the expense of recovering $915 (?), and her deciding to bear the cost of defending herself vs. settlement, I am sure that both the time-line and decisions to not have lab-work done sooner will be raised. Trust that I am finding no fault what-so-ever with your actions, but her attorney will certainly sing a more sour note to you. If nothing else, the heads-up to all who may have had contact with her, or need an IBD reminder, was much needed.

Sorry to quote such a large post, but it seems that on the BOI multiple posts are often finished while replying to one. I just want to keep it clear to what I am responding to as it will take me some time to type a response.

Those are excellent points. The cases of IBD affecting an animal within a month or two is limited to pythons species as far as I can tell from my research. Blood tests are actually not conclusive as all they can check for is a white cell count of over 30,000 (if memory serves). There are new methods of detecting in snakes outlined in a recent article by Michael M. Garner, DVM, Dipl ACVP and James T. Raymond, DVM, MS, Dipl ACVP in Exotic DVM Magazine. According to this literature, the most effective means of detection in a live snake is a wedge liver biopsy. Other methods outlined include cutaneous or gastric biopsy. However, all of these tests are very invasive (cutaneous to a lesser extent) and not feasible upon acquisition of all new animals. However, any animals that show symptoms of a major disorder are routinely tested and necropsies performed with specific tests for IBD and Cryptosporidium. My in house clinic leaves me capable of performing almost any nonsurgical procedure, however, all necropsies and pathology is performed by licensed professionals.

I have also been made aware that IDB is capable of infecting snakes of Crotalus and Agkistrodon. While I am still trying to track down the specific case studies (Bothriechis marchi is the only viperid that is listed on most literature), this causes me great concern because of my large collection of Crotalids in addition to boids.

Please let me know if I missed addressing something.

Am I safe to assume that someone has notified her of this thread?

Hey B.W., thanks for the info. Let me preface again by saying that I believe that Susan is culpable in this case. given the facts as currently presented, at least from an ethical standpoint. From a legal standpoint, fairness and ethics don't always apply. I believe that you alluded to an unrelated breeding loan that you had set up that included an IBD clause. I also strongly suspect that many of the larger breeders may have their own as well, and undoubtedly there will be major similarities included in all, outlining timelines of responsibility, means of diagnosis, allocation of costs, etc. I don't know if you had one with Susan, whether it was practical, whether its information that you need to sit on right now, etc. Whether you are actually able to ever recover anything is beyond my ability to predict, but at least any discerning breeder will find this thread and be forewarned. Perhaps a generic IBD clause for any boid purchase contract is already floating around out there, and if not, one or more will eventually surface with time. Where warranted by the parties involved, such a clause could then be included in any deal, and hopefully lead to an easier resolution when a problem like this arises. Its not too late for Susan to stop the bleeding on this one, although admittedly she has already spilt quite a bit. B.W., I have to applaud all of your protocols and actions here.