Ty park/ ty lizards FL

Originally Posted by Lucille

David I was disagreeing with Mike's post, not yours, which I agree with.

I figured that was the case, lol.

Originally Posted by Lucille

I disagree. There's not much Ty can do to get out of his predicament. And there is a lot of value in pointing out possible legal transgressions, so that those visiting minions will see a perspective that does not need to be hidden, that they are not seeing elsewhere, in order to draw informed conclusions.
Remember that a lot of 'legal' advice in this thread is being given by good hearted people that have little legal expertise, so Ty's watchers build on a shaky foundation if they use some of the expressed opinion.


Is this still your point of view?

It is. And this is exactly why, to avoid the point that it's escalated to now. I understand why the case is being pursued on principle, and I really do wish for the best outcome for Michelle.

I just have a lot of concern for the multitude of ways it can go, that are not in her favor, for the reasons I stated before.

All of this is very clear to us, as we're in the hobby and understand the nuances. I believe Ty's case is going to be shut down by a reasonable judge; the dramatics and lack of quantitative evidence to show loss of business don't prove it beyond reasonable doubt.

It's Michelle's side that I am concerned for because on its very basest elements, this case comes down to the semantics that Ty tried to play on. Tegu produced by Ty, or tegu furnished by Ty. Is there a major difference to the judge? Throw out all the other noise that, in the end, don't contribute towards that decision, and in my opinion, it's not a lot to hedge your bets on.

And that is what I feel everyone is missing.

Originally Posted by Safierdrgn

So I've been keeping up with this thread...I'm one of THOSE people that has read every single post. Yes I have no life.

I looked up the amended case tonight and I'm a bit baffled by what Ty's attorney has said(or was this him?). I've only screenshotted one bit, which is attached to this post. I've highlighted the parts that are baffling me.

From what I've seen numerous times in this thread, raffles are illegal in Florida unless conducted by a non-profit, and I thought she sent monies to IRCF not Ty himself.

You can find the case #17000266CA here to read the entire bit.
https://courtsweb.co.charlotte.fl.us...me.aspx/Search

actually Mike, if you read the parts in post #1725, you can clearly see that he states twice that he conducted the raffle.
then at the bottom, refers to not producing albino blue tegus, which ties him to the initial raffle rules he state as produced by him or 3000$ !! the part that is not showing is him saying she refused to accept one that he would find elsewhere for her but she refused (insisted he respect his terms) he strategically mentions only parts of the communications in hopes of looking good, but forgets that all of the communications, in full are saved and will be presented.. his lies and twisted ways of expressing how he sees it, will fall apart..
but I agree, we should just leave the holes unspoken and let him hang himself in his lies. he's done good so far.

so I don't see how he can, in front of a judge, jump from one meaning to another

sorry the quote didn't add the pics of the transcript

Originally Posted by Mike (The M)

It's Michelle's side that I am concerned for because on its very basest elements, this case comes down to the semantics that Ty tried to play on. Tegu produced by Ty, or tegu furnished by Ty. Is there a major difference to the judge? Throw out all the other noise that, in the end, don't contribute towards that decision, and in my opinion, it's not a lot to hedge your bets on.

I think the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of Michelle, and for some reason I am getting the vibe that you are a wolf in sheep's clothing, here to put the hush on.

Originally Posted by Lucille

I think the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of Michelle, and for some reason I am getting the vibe that you are a wolf in sheep's clothing, here to put the hush on.

I will vouch that the vibe is mistaken. I know Michael rather well and see where he is coming from. He believes she deserves what is owed to her and is impressed by her tenacity. He has expressed that he (himself) would have taken the $400 and walked if he had been in her shoes earlier on. That is to say he would rather do that than have the entire headache and fight. It is merely a different path. I applaud what Michelle has endured with.

One concern is that a jury will see this as a strange and unfamiliar scenario and be too focused on vagaries such as "lizard" to focus on the base of the argument being that a [product of a very particular source and very
particular identity] was to be delivered versus a cash equivalent under [particular circumstances]. Mike's call to caution was to avoid giving this the "razzle dazzle" (Chicago style) set of options for argumentation that a slick lawyer could use to provide something plausible (yet inaccurate) in the eyes of uninformed jurors to lead jurors outside of the hobby to believe that an unreasonable set of responses by one party seem somehow reasonable when shifted or distorted into something analogous that is easier for them to associate with or relate to. Kind of like when a person with his or her child at a reptile show sees no difference between the $5000 baby Galapagos tortoise and the $50 Russian tortoise (and thinks one can be found at the park for free to boot). Explaining to that sort of person the value of the Galap in the event of a dispute over a Galap is a greater hurdle to overcome for reaching a point of full understanding and somebody who knows all of these things as "turtles" could make an erroneous conclusion of value or reasonableness regarding the two parties. Same thing for the albino tegu, lizards, and so forth. A lawyer for Ty might try to make this out to be a Sunbeam grill of X model from this store versus and Sunbeam grill of X model from another store when it is more like buildings produced by different home-builders or artwork pieces produced by different artists of the same art style (but with different sourcing, execution, and reputations). Ty's lawyer might try to paint things in a clone-like fashion when individual animals and the stock that gives rise to them are not as identical as replicated coinage exiting the presses of a mint.

That is the spirit of what Michael speaks to as I perceive it.

I think we underestimate the percentage of the population that is knowledgeable of animals. It is very easy to make analogies to pedigrees for dogs and bloodlines for horses. All that is needed is one person on the jury to have ever followed horse racing and can explain importance of lineage to the others.

If I won a horse sired by a Kentucky Derby winner and was instead told to accept a horse that was the same color, but had no paperwork, would I be asked to accept it?

Originally Posted by MikeCurtin

I think we underestimate the percentage of the population that is knowledgeable of animals. It is very easy to make analogies to pedigrees for dogs and bloodlines for horses. All that is needed is one person on the jury to have ever followed horse racing and can explain importance of lineage to the others.

If I won a horse sired by a Kentucky Derby winner and was instead told to accept a horse that was the same color, but had no paperwork, would I be asked to accept it?

You nailed it with this quote. There are hundreds of analogies which can be used to give the jury an understanding and not see this as just some lizard. It why Ty is even able to command such high prices for his animals in the first place. Take away his specific animal and such raffles wouldn't even bring as much money.

Originally Posted by MikeCurtin

I think we underestimate the percentage of the population that is knowledgeable of animals. It is very easy to make analogies to pedigrees for dogs and bloodlines for horses. All that is needed is one person on the jury to have ever followed horse racing and can explain importance of lineage to the others.

If I won a horse sired by a Kentucky Derby winner and was instead told to accept a horse that was the same color, but had no paperwork, would I be asked to accept it?

So many people care about neither dog pedigrees nor horse races. Many people are actually opposed to the concepts involved in both. If the jurors selected do not at least include that one who values the concepts, then the issue persists.

Either way, pitching strategy that can be prepared for before the eyes of one's opposition is itself a mark of poor strategy. I would not want to provide tips if I were facing someone in court. I would want a person to scramble and fall all over himself in sloppy fashion on the spot and have the jurors see that display of ill-preparedness. That makes an emotional impression.

To answer your question, if Ty Park was attempting to deliver said same-colored horse in place of the one you won, then perhaps he would ask or expect you to accept it.

How many t- albino tegu breeders are out there? We are not comparing ball pythons to albino tegus. Albino tegus are not produced by every backyard breeder out there. Very few people produce t- albino tegu breeders. Plus after OP told Ty that was not the deal, Ty with in the minute said ok I will send you one I produced. With in the Minute!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So Ty told OP that he was not willing to give t+ albino tegus, and will try to get t- albino tegus from another breeder, but then was not able to get t- albino tegus from another breeder. So he decided to send her and the other winner t+ albino tegus that he bred himself. At that time OP didn't know what the hell is t- vs t+, blue vs purple. It is not unreasonable for him to go to what the contract says and call that t+ albino purple tegu a albino tegu produced by himself.

In his post he claims that OP was after the money. I think he truly believed this because OP asked for the money instead and did not appear to want the albino tegu that he produced (by not sending address). I feel that he said she was greedy because she wanted the cash and not the albino tegu, which he clearly produced.

He gave OP a deadline of Oct 8th to send address for shipping. She sues him around August 16th. There is a lot of time between Aug 16th and Oct 8th. The minute she sued him for tegu I believe she has given the rights to determine if she gets prize to the court system. Sadly the courts in mass. failed her. A couple of people has offered and tried to mediate things between the two, once lawsuit is filed, why would Ty mediate? Sometime between Aug 16th and Oct 8th would have be a good time to mediate. Sometime between Aug 16th and Oct 8th would have been a good time to contact IRCF and ask them to help out with the situation.

For all you guys know, the breeder who Ty was going to get the tegus from would have animals that are related to Ty's, it would be easy to prove that they are of the same quality. Plus that ever happened because OP did not like that idea, and Ty ended up offering OP and the other winner albino tegus that he produced (purple t+).

Think of all the other good things that Ty has done over that years. And the other raffle winner(s) that got their prize. This paints him in a very good picture. From August 16th to Oct 8th OP could have gotten a very nice tegu from Mr. Park. That is a long long time. Instead, on Aug 16th OP filed a lawsuit. Wouldn't any reasonable person say you should at least give the guy a chance to give out the prize?

OP likes to point out oh it was suppose to be sent out end of July! Sadly, we are dealing with live animals and nothing is on schedule. ON july 31st, Ty told you soon on the tegus, in the next text message you gave him a thumbs up. To me it means OP is ok with extending the deadline alittle bit.

"but then was not able to get t- albino tegus from another breeder."

This line I typed wrong, it was not he couldn't get them from another breeder. It was OP said this was not part of the deal and within the minute Ty responded with ok I will send you one that I produced.