Chaos Reptiles and Pet Supply, Dan Peck and Josh Stone

Ya know, from this dumb ol mans perspective it would be a real shame if the good vendors let the bad vendors drive tham away from a show just because the bad guy is ginna be there.
Seems to me that is the good guy promoting the bad guy by default. The only choice folks will have is to purchase from the bad guy.
Oh well, I'm just a dumb ol man.

I agree with Kelly & Randal. If I had a show I wouldn't allow the sign or unsolicited opinion or remarks. Not from anyone. In fact, it would open the door for personal, factual or non-factual, retaliation or accusation from anyone about anyone.

Another way of looking at it: Continual bad-mouthing, whether warranted or not, usually backfires. Yes, the sign may save some people from a bad transaction with whomever the sign is about, but, it will also turn other people against the person displaying the sign. They could lose just as much business, if not more, than the ones they're attempting to warn about.

No accusations or insinuations in this post, just food for thought.

Have a good one!
Michael Sanders

Originally Posted by Suncoast Herpetological

1 David is not simply trying to tell the story of what happened to him. He is urging others not to do business with them. That translates into damages. He is making the assumption that they will treat everyone that way and is stating his opinion as fact.

2 A formal "lease" has nothing to do with it. If I am a promoter, and i allow David to display the sign described and the targets sue him for it. I am complicit. If the case if is decided in his favor (and it probably would be) there is an excellent chance that i would also share in paying any damages awarded.


No promoter in his right mind would allow that sign.

I think it's most likely the type of suit your thinking of is defamation, in which case the falsity would be via insinuation but it must be proven that the insinuation that said company has treated ppl whom extended credit to them poorly is in fact a falsity, the good thing is that sign is really brief and can be taken a few different ways. It probably would have been safer without the "warning" as then it is just a command so to speak. I would need to re-read the thread to comment more as it's been a bit and I'm sure I forget half of it.

For the promoter to pay they would have to be sued for negligence, like I said I understand why a promoter would make them remove the sign to avoid the issue. As for formal agreements, what I was getting at is grounds for negligence and most other laws depend on what the agreements state that's all.

Originally Posted by DAND

Well I guess I won't be doing the shows you both promote, too bad one was one I was considering doing. You call it "dissing" I call it providing the public and other vendors information that they wouldn't know about otherwise (not everyone checks the BOI). And for the two you who would not allow said sign you would also be disallowing me my First Amendment rights. I am not being rude, disrespectful, malicious or libel with my sign.

Dan, please understand, I would not ask YOU to leave if a sign was displayed, but would ask you to remove the sign. I do not feel it is right to bring such drama into a show where most people do not even know which vendor is which (unless they have a banner). This would go for ANY vendor displaying ANY sign about another vendor.
It clearly states in my rules that all vendors are to be professional towards others (customers and to other vendors), and I personally do not feel that displaying a sign with no explanation is professional. For all anyone would know, you just do not LIKE Chaos Reptiles, and are just being malicious towards them. Most people are NOT going to stop and ask "why". I would not disallow you to SPEAK to other people about your experiences with other vendors, but, to me, a sign is just not the right way to go about things.

So you'd make a scene by removing a vendor (clearly violating his/her First Amendment rights) buy not allow a simple sign informing others of someone's shady dealings? No vocalization either? I'm sure you'd have quite a bit of trouble on your hands if you did indeed remove a vendor for either of the reasons of verbalization or the written word.

Although this was not directed at me since you quoted Randy, I would like to make a statement. Nowhere did I say that you could not vocalize your opinions at the show, just not post a sign. And again, I would not ask you to leave unless you would not remove the sign. (For the record, I do not recall seeing Randy saying he would automatically remove you for the sign, nor do I recall seeing him say you could not vocalize your issue).

I am sorry if this means you have decided against doing my show (assuming you meant my show since I am closer), but there are, in my opinion, better ways to go about things than displaying a sign to voice your opinion. Although I DO sympathize with your situation with Chaos, and am in no way condoning their actions towards you or others that have had issues with them, I could not allow any vendor to do something like this towards another.

Also, like Randy has a contract with a cricket vendor, I also have one with Turtle Xing, but you would always be allowed to come in with other animals for sale.

Well the sign was at my table also and I will continue to display the sign....
I gotta look at it like this, if I did not know who osama bin ladin was and he was selling guns at a gun show...I would appreciate someone displaying a sign saying he is a terrorist...that is the truth and not slander
Dave will allways have my support

Originally Posted by John Apple

Well the sign was at my table also and I will continue to display the sign....
I gotta look at it like this, if I did not know who osama bin ladin was and he was selling guns at a gun show...I would appreciate someone displaying a sign saying he is a terrorist...that is the truth and not slander
Dave will allways have my support

I can see both sides of this story. I can understand how someone that has had a bad experience with a vendor would want to share with other potential customers about what they may be in for if they purchased from said vendor. I also agree that all sales experiences with said vendor may not have the same outcome, however, it does seem to me that Chaos does have a rather consistent history of being questionable.

As for any vendor, I agree that I would not allow any signs to be posted, not for the libel, I dont think a promoter can be held libel for damages for the opinions of another. I would not disallow anyone from talking to other vendors or potential customers about the bad history of another vendor or person. I think every vendor and promoter has a resposibility to themselves, to the show, to the trade, and to the customers to make aware any and all bad business practices. It is these vendors, that give this business a bad name. If you want to buy garbage, you dont have to go far, shop at Hamburg.

Dont get me wrong, there are alot of good vendors at Hamburg. But over the years, the place has really gone down hill. It is starting to look like a flea market. You can buy and sell anything in there. People take their dogs, walk around with animals loose, in a tight confined isle. The building is old, you cant walk into the bathrooms without having to pull your pants legs up atleast 6". In my opinion Chaos is right at home there. They have no place in a nice show.

So... this all started from a gimpy leg leo, and a slightly late payment for some crickets? This is pretty ridiculous, especially in light of the fact all concerned parties have been paid in full, and Dan offered to replace the leo.

How many of these posters bashing Chaos have ever actually done business or have been owed money by them? It seems like most of these people are just friends of Dave, trying to make mountains out of mole hills.

I've done thousands of dollars worth of business with Chaos, and they are one of my favorite businesses to work with. Of the dozens of animals I've purchased from them, I've never had any come in in less than flawless condition. Every time he has purchased from me, his payments were always prompt.

I'm not sure what Dave's ulterior motive is for making such a big deal over nothing, but its certainly not for the reasons he's saying. It seems that perhaps Dave had a falling out with Chaos, and is just trying to wage a personal crusade against them despite the fact that Chaos has made good on their promises.

I will keep doing business with Chaos without hesitation.

Originally Posted by mikeyt

But over the years, the place has really gone down hill. It is starting to look like a flea market. You can buy and sell anything in there. People take their dogs, walk around with animals loose, in a tight confined isle. The building is old, you cant walk into the bathrooms without having to pull your pants legs up atleast 6".

Completely off topic, but I agree. I hate Hamburg. It's filthy and the promoter shoved way too many vendors in a small space so that navigating the aisles is near impossible. I've decided to stop going to and vending at Hamburg unless I need to deliver a large order. It's just not worth the aggravation.