Beware of Pets Go Round!

Last month at the KY Reptile Expo (Feb. 7th), I made a trade with Jason of Pets Go Round. I traded him a CBB '03 Female Ball Python for a pair of baby Hypo Cornsnakes (not sure on exact age, but they were tiny). They seemed to be in good condition....until I got them home and I noticed that their bowel movements seemed a bit unusual (discolored, runny, very smelly). I figured maybe they were just stressed from going back and forth from the show, so I decided to just see how they would do......both of them ate fine for me and one shed.......until the day before yesterday when one of them died abruptly. Then today the other snake regurged its meal rom 2 days ago. I am almost certain the snakes have/had internal parasites, judging from the abnormal feces and the regurge. I contacted Jason about this matter and here is the conversation I have had with him so far:

----- Original Message ----- From: "dcbear01" <dcbear01@athena.louisville.edu>
To: "skfu" <skfu@insightbb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 3:43 PM
Subject: More problems......

Well, I thought the other cornsnake was doing fine, but it regurged its
meal today and has had some very abnormal bowel movements. I'm certain this one has parasites as well......if the snake doesn't die, it will likely require medication. I am not happy about this, Jason. You got a 100% healthy Ball Python from me and I got a dead snake and a puker with parasites. I sincerely hope all of your animals are not of this quality. I'm not mad, just a little frustrated. Please let me know what you think would be the best course of action to resolve this problem. Thanks for your time.

David Beard

Wednesday, February 25, 2004 4:45 PM
From: "skfu" <skfu@insightbb.com> Add to Address Book
To: dcbear01
Subject: RE: More problems......
Status: Urgent New
I have had NO problems with any of my corns. I dont know why they are doing
that. I have had NONE regurge at all. Get a test done, I think it is only
like $10 and let me know. But there is no problems with any of my snakes at
all. All are eating and pooping fine with no bad smell.
LMK

To: "skfu" <skfu@insightbb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 4:28 PM
Subject: RE: More problems......


> I wish it was only $10. My vet charges $30 for a fecal exam. I have had a
few
> animals
> with internal parsites before and they all had the exact same
> symptoms.....runny,
> discolored feces, and regurges. Honestly, I don't need to get a test done
to
> tell that
> something is wrong with the snake......one is already dead.
>

Wednesday, February 25, 2004 5:29 PM
From: "skfu" <skfu@insightbb.com> Add to Address Book
To: dcbear01
Subject: RE: More problems......
Status: Urgent New
It is just kinda weird that all the ones I have here are fine. I am not
sure what to say about that. What do think else could have happened. Have
you had any other sick animals? I just dont have any other clues

----- Original Message ----- From: "dcbear01" <dcbear01@athena.louisville.edu>
To: "skfu" <skfu@insightbb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 5:05 PM
Subject: RE: More problems......


> What I meant is that you got a healthy snake from me.....I got a dead
snake
> and one that
> is sick. When I give up a perfectly healthy snake, I expect the same in
> return. I don't know
> what happened either....all I know is that I got them from you and they
are
> not doing well,
> so I came to the source.

Wednesday, February 25, 2004 8:50 PM
From: "skfu" <skfu@insightbb.com> Add to Address Book
To: dcbear01
Subject: RE: More problems......
Status: Urgent New
I got them from another guy about (I think) a week or so before the show. I
dont know what to tell you. I really dont think it is my fault. It has
almost been 3 weeks sense you have had them, but if you think it is than I
guess I can work something out with you at the next show. I should be
there. Sometimes you have to loose money to be "the nice guy".

----- Original Message ----- From: "dcbear01" <dcbear01@athena.louisville.edu>
To: "skfu" <skfu@insightbb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 9:14 PM
Subject: RE: More problems......


> Regardless of who you got them from....you were selling them weren't you?
They
> were
> on your table right? Then you take full responsibility for the animals in
my
> opinion. I am
> not trying to a bother about this....I just am a bit frustrated that I
gave up
> a perfect snake
> for a dead snake and a sick one. If you were not 100% sure that the Corns
were
> healthy,
> you should not have had them at the show. I am not a vet and I can tell
there
> is
> something wrong with them (or the one that is still alive for now), so you
> should have
> been able to as well. Its just an unwritten code of ethics: you don't sell
> unhealthy animals
> and if you make a mistake, you take responsibility and correct that
mistake. I
> don't see
> how you are "losing money." I am the one who is losing out......having to
go
> through the
> headache of having one snake die and another be sick.
>


Wednesday, February 25, 2004 10:16 PM
From: "skfu" <skfu@insightbb.com> Add to Address Book
To: dcbear01
Subject: RE: More problems......
Status: Urgent New
I have tried to be nice and said that I would make it right EVEN though I
have no idea when the snakes got sick, with you or me. OR if you just dont
take good care of them. I have no idea. I have been nice and said that I
would take the loss. If that is not enough I dont know what is. EVERY
snake I have right now have no problems and I have a lot from the last show.
SO now what? It seems that I can not please you. Let me know what will
make you happy.

----- Original Message -----
> >From: "dcbear01" <dcbear01@athena.louisville.edu>
> >To: "skfu" <skfu@insightbb.com>
> >Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 9:38 PM
> >Subject: RE: More problems......
> >
> >
> >> Jeez.....you know what? Forget about the whole thing.....I can see that
> >your
> >> only concern
> >> in this matter is not making the customer happy, but what benefits you
the
> >> most. If the
> >> remaining corn lives, I'll count my blessings.....if it dies, I'll
chalk
> >it up
> >> to experience. But
> >> know this for sure....you definitely won't be getting any of my
business
> >in
> >> the future and I
> >> may alert Jason Feagans (the KY show owner) of this situation as well.
And
> >> don't EVER
> >> question how well I care for my animals......I am not the one peddling
> >sick
> >> animals and
> >> then dodging the responsibility for it. I wish you the best of luck and
I
> >> sincerely hope your
> >> business ethics improve.
> >>
> >> David Beard
> >>

> >===== Original Message From "skfu" <skfu@insightbb.com> =====
> >Man, You came at me accusing me of everything and expect me to just sit
> >back and take it. I dont know you from anyone else at the show that is
> >walking around trying to sell something. I told you I would do what I
could
> >to help you out on the first one that died. How am I to know that I got
> >them sick. You have had them for 3 weeks and I am just now hearing about
> >this. AGAIN, I will tell you that I can make it good even though NEITHER
of
> >us know what the problem is nor do we know how it got this problem. I
did
> >trade you a $25 of yours for those 2 snakes. So if you want another CBB
> >ball back for your troubles or something else let me know at the show. I
> >make good on all problems but 3 weeks later is a bit much.
> >See you at the show (I hope I will be there)

> Where did I accuse you of anything other than the truth? If you don't want
to
> be accused
> of selling sick snakes, then don't sell them. Don't play innocent.....I
could
> easily tell there
> was something wrong with them right after I got them home. I did not
contact
> you right
> away because I hoped they would overcome the problems and because I do not
> like to
> jump the gun on people. It is irresponsible to sell animals that you are
not
> 100% sure are
> healthy. I am not saying they contracted the parasites while you had them,
but
> YOU
> traded them to me so therefore YOU accept responsibilty for any problem I
have
> with
> them. Honestly, I do not want any more of your animals because I don't
want
> any
> possible diseases to infect my collection. don't want any of your
money.....I
> don't want
> your business period. You have shown yourself to be irresponsible and
> dishonest in your
> ways already......weren't you selling WC snakes at the last show? Do you
know
> that is
> against the rules of the show? Either you didn't know or you don't
> care....both of which
> are signs of irresponsibility. I have learned a valuable lesson......your
> animals are sub-
> par and so is your customer service. Therefore, I will not be doing any
> business with you
> in the future. Good luck.
>
> David B
>

Wednesday, February 25, 2004 11:00 PM
From: "skfu" <skfu@insightbb.com> Add to Address Book
To: dcbear01
Subject: RE: More problems......
Status: Urgent New
If I knew that you were not the one that had them when they became sick and
it was me then I would want to do all I could to help you out. I have said
that I would give you something else even though it is not my responsibility
after 3 weeks. That seems like a person I would deal with. Sounds like I
am trying to make YOU happy. Where did I miss that?

Have a good night and hope to see you at the show
Thank you

----- Original Message ----- From: "dcbear01" <dcbear01@athena.louisville.edu>
To: "skfu" <skfu@insightbb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 10:08 PM
Subject: RE: More problems......


> You must have misread my last message.......I do NOT want any more animals
> from you.
> Lord knows what I could bring home to infect my current collection. It is
> quite obvious you
> lack integrity and responsibility. I do not associate or give my busines
to
> people like you.
> You are only interested in making a buck or trying to get something from
> nothing. I am
> done conversing with you on this matter. Good day sir.

Wednesday, February 25, 2004 11:09 PM
From: "skfu" <skfu@insightbb.com> Add to Address Book
To: dcbear01
Subject: RE: More problems......
Status: Urgent New
You just dont understand what I am trying to say. I HAVE tried to give you
another animal (you dont want) I have tried to work this out with you BUT
you dont want any of my animals because you think I sold you sick snakes (I
did not). Just wanted to make all of this clear.
That is not saving a buck or just trying to rip someone off that is trying
to work something out with someone that does not want to work anything out.

Thank you sir

How is he a bad guy? How I read the emails you just posted, he was willing to work something out with you even after you waited three weeks to notify him of a problem.

Wednesday, February 25, 2004 8:50 PM
From: "skfu" Add to Address Book
To: dcbear01
Subject: RE: More problems......
Status: Urgent New
I got them from another guy about (I think) a week or so before the show. I
dont know what to tell you. I really dont think it is my fault. It has
almost been 3 weeks sense you have had them, but if you think it is than I
guess I can work something out with you at the next show. I should be
there. Sometimes you have to loose money to be "the nice guy".

Then you hit him with this after he agrees to work with you...

----- Original Message ----- From: "dcbear01"
To: "skfu"
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 9:14 PM
Subject: RE: More problems......


> Regardless of who you got them from....you were selling them weren't you?
They
> were
> on your table right? Then you take full responsibility for the animals in
my
> opinion. I am
> not trying to a bother about this....I just am a bit frustrated that I
gave up
> a perfect snake
> for a dead snake and a sick one. If you were not 100% sure that the Corns
were
> healthy,
> you should not have had them at the show. I am not a vet and I can tell
there
> is
> something wrong with them (or the one that is still alive for now), so you
> should have
> been able to as well. Its just an unwritten code of ethics: you don't sell
> unhealthy animals
> and if you make a mistake, you take responsibility and correct that
mistake. I
> don't see
> how you are "losing money." I am the one who is losing out......having to
go
> through the
> headache of having one snake die and another be sick.

You put him on the defensive. Honestly, how did you expect him to react when you keep bashing him after he already agreed to work with you?

I don't see a bad guy here but a pain in the ass, unreasonable customer.

David,

What were the terms of any guarantees at the time of the trade?

Did you give him any alternative to make the situation right? He offered to "make it right" at the next show. That's fine that you didn't want another snake from him, but it seemed from the emails posted that he was willing to take care of the situation. I'd have to agree from the emails you posted it seems like no matter what he offered you wouldn't have allowed him to correct the situation.

I don't want another snake from him....because he has not demonstrated the responsibility to warrant getting another from him. He had the corns for only a week and then sold them.....thats irresponsible if you ask me. I haven't sold many snakes, but the ones I did sell, I made 100% sure they were in excellent health and I did not buy them one week and sell them the next. He has not offered a money refund.....only another snake. I apologize if I seem unreasonable for wanting what I give......he got a perfect snake from me and I got a dead one and one that probably will die. Is that fair?

There were no terms agreed upon when we made the transacton, but sue me for expecting him to be responsible and take accountability for the animals he sells. Honestly, I do not care about what I get in return.....I just want to alert others to his shafty business ethics and the unprofessional manner he handles his animals.

I have to agree with the last poster David. The guy is trying to fix the situation and you are still on the attack. This is another example of a premature "bad guy" post.

If the seller had told you to buzz off you would have a reason to complain but this gentleman was nothing but courteous to you until you kept belaboring the issue. Bottom line is that on occasion, animals simply don't acclimate well to new surroundings. Possibly the initial meals were a bit large. Any one of a number of issues could be causing this problem. In all probability, the odds on a captive bred baby corn having a parasite load are next to zero.

My opinion is that you should take the adjustment the seller is offering and quit trying to prolong an argument. He is attempting to fix the problem and all you seem to want to do is fight.

I would have to agree with the other posters here. I have purchased many snakes, and sold a couple hundred , and it seems that he is attempting to fix the problem.

I know when I sold snakes, my guarantee was something like this:
Guaranteed not to be DOA, buyer can return minus shipping for ANY reason within 24 hours, guaranteed healthy and eating for 7 days. If there is health/eating problem w/in 7 days, I would exchange or refund money including shipping back to me.

Unless there was a written or oral guarantee otherwise, 3 weeks is a bit excessive, and I don't feel he had to do anything for you. But he offered to correct the problem. That in my opinion was VERY generous of him, seeing this was 3 weeks after the fact.

If I would you I would accept the adjustment or the new animal(s) and leave it at that.

I would also like to say I agree, that a captive bred corn snake is very unlikely to have parasites.

Either way, I hope the other corn makes it, and I hope you can work this out.

Stephen Barger
just my 2cents worth.
Newport News, VA

Wednesday, February 25, 2004 10:16 PM
From: "skfu" Add to Address Book
To: dcbear01
Subject: RE: More problems......
Status: Urgent New
I have tried to be nice and said that I would make it right EVEN though I
have no idea when the snakes got sick, with you or me. OR if you just dont
take good care of them. I have no idea. I have been nice and said that I
would take the loss. If that is not enough I dont know what is. EVERY
snake I have right now have no problems and I have a lot from the last show.
SO now what? It seems that I can not please you. Let me know what will
make you happy.

Right there he asks you what he can do to make you happy. You should have asked for monetary compensation if that is what you wanted. He didn't say it had to be another animal. But instead of doing that, you go into this little tirad...

----- Original Message -----
> >From: "dcbear01"
> >To: "skfu"
> >Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 9:38 PM
> >Subject: RE: More problems......
> >
> >
> >> Jeez.....you know what? Forget about the whole thing.....I can see that
> >your
> >> only concern
> >> in this matter is not making the customer happy, but what benefits you
the
> >> most. If the
> >> remaining corn lives, I'll count my blessings.....if it dies, I'll
chalk
> >it up
> >> to experience. But
> >> know this for sure....you definitely won't be getting any of my
business
> >in
> >> the future and I
> >> may alert Jason Feagans (the KY show owner) of this situation as well.
And
> >> don't EVER
> >> question how well I care for my animals......I am not the one peddling
> >sick
> >> animals and
> >> then dodging the responsibility for it. I wish you the best of luck and
I
> >> sincerely hope your
> >> business ethics improve.
> >>
> >> David Beard

Calmly telling him what would have made you happy probably would have solved this in a matter of minutes and avoided all the drama.

Guys....I hear what you're saying but I think you are missing my main point. OK, he offered to fix it....fine. I don't want his offer, but thats besides the point. The main problem I have is that he does not seem to care what goes in or out of his care or what state the animals he deals are in. Its just not a good idea to put animals on your table that you are not certain are healthy. I have had several snakes with internal parasites before and they all had the exact same symptoms as the corns do. Smelly, runny, discolored feces, regurges....DEATH. Its obvious he does not monitor what goes in and out of his collection well.....THAT is extremely dangerous. His carelessness and irresponsibility are the main issues here.

I do agree with you that a one week turn around is awful quick. But, to accuse him of trading parasite infested snakes to you is a bit presumptuous without a fecal exam. If you have one done, let us know what the results are.

David

Your point could be valid if you had something to base it on other than your assumptions but the fact is that you don't. The only facts of this situation are:

1.) You traded for two Corns that, at the very least, you found to be visually acceptable

2.) A week or so later you suspected that they were having problems

3.) Three weeks later (after one had died) you contacted the seller to express your dissatisfaction.

4.) The seller offerred to make it right with you and specifically asked you to state what kind of recompense would satisfy you.

5.) You were then belligerant with the seller and refused his attempts to right the situation.

Your statements about the way you suspect he keeps his collection and the statement he seels sick animals are nothing but assumptions based on nothing. He could be stating facts when he claims that all of the other corns he has are doing well. You could simply have been unlucky enough to receive a couple of animals that did not acclimate well.

Bottom line is that this post was ridiculously premature and should never have been made.

Unfortunately, this seems to be a trend lately...one I hope does not continue.