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Originally Posted by Seamus Haley
Yeah... difficult questions. Ones which might not be answered. Ones which might be a little insulting even though it's not my intention in asking them... Ones which will probably get people kinda angry at me too but... I think they're worth asking because I think the answers might be important.
Rich, are you sick of running/owning Fauna? I know that it's a full time job unto itself that you do in addition to your actual full time occupation, I know it's gotta be a frustrating balancing act that nobody could ever completely catch up to and... I know your attitude towards the site seems to have shifted rather signifigantly so I ask... are you just finally at the end of your rope when it comes to dealing with Fauna headaches? When I registered there was conflict, there was drama, there were site issues and crisis that seemed as if they were the most important thing to ever happen... and you handled it all with a kind of aplomb. You dealt with series issues seriously but you didn't seem to equate serious with personal and didn't *appear* to become so emotionally invested that you were left drained and bitterly apathetic to what you were doing- now you do. Come across that way sometimes anyway; asking things like "Is fauna worth it?" You used to know the answer. You knew you were doing something right, something good and something that had a beneficial impact on an entire industry. You knew how, you knew why and you really were unto yourself a sort of ethical superhero- stopping wrongdoers for the good of the innocent and helping the righteous live better. Kind of an idealized version of it obviously and the nitty-gritty often looked a lot uglier but those WERE and ARE the results. It's impossible to gauge how many people you have saved from wasting money with crooks, how many two bit cons were squashed before they became bigtime cons and how many GOOD PEOPLE have seen their hard worth and proper approach grow into a signifigant business because the truth was spread about them here.
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In answer to your question about being "sick of running/owning FaunaClassifieds": Yes, sometimes. The pay sucks for the time and effort I have put into it. It is a sinkhole for money out of my pocket. How long have I been doing this? Well figure it out and tell me YOU would have done it. And then tell me you would want to KEEP on doing it until you drop.
The "attitude" comes and goes. Sometimes the burden feels heavier then at other times. Sometimes I have other things to do that this *free* exercise infringes on. Sometimes I find myself being short of temper with my wife and not able to give time to her that I should because I am sitting in front of the computer for THIS site. And when I am asked WHY I am doing it, sometimes I really don't have a satisfactory answer.
Is Fauna worth it? Sometimes. Is it going to be worth it for me to be doing this with no appreciable return on my time and efforts? No, not any longer. To give you an example, just the other day I was offered a contract to maintain a number of websites for someone. That was a *paying* contract. I turned it down, because I knew that I would not have the time to do the job effectively. Because of the time constraints THIS site takes of me. Is that a smart thing for me to do? Is that a logical thing for me to do? From a
business standpoint, is it the BEST thing for me to do? You tell me....
I don't know, perhaps I am more the Don Quixote then any make believe superhero. It's not like in the movies, where the good guy always wins, you know. So why should I be burning out parts of my life if most of the people believe that I am obligated to do it all for their sake for nothing in return? Anyone else lining up to do something like that here?
So yeah, people saved money because this site I run kept them from making a mistake. This site helped point out people that may very well have taken LOTS of people for a ride. But yet when I start suggesting that maybe I need to start charging something as a return on my efforts, I get grilled over it and third degreed over my "motives"? Next few threads, let's see you all line up and tell me what YOU personally have done to help ANY industry at all. To help any bunch of people you have never met, by taking money out of your pocket, time out of your life, and your own efforts to do so.
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Originally Posted by Seamus Haley
So stuff like is Fauna worth it... HELL YES! There really needs to be some word to describe absolute positive assurance with more strength... Absolutely, unequivically without question, dissenting opinion or the slightest microscopic possibility for any deviation... Fauna is worth it.
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Sure it is! Uh well, as long as it is *free* of course. As long as someone else is footing the bill, right? That is the signal I am getting from quite a few people here. That they will leave if they have to help foot the bills. That it is not *right* for me to want to get a little something in return for my efforts. Does that sound like the way you interpret this as well? Hell, most people are not even involved enough to even GIVE their opinion and are probably thinking, "Hell it doesn't matter to me either way. If this site folds up, big deal, there are others out there where I can get my jollies."
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Originally Posted by Seamus Haley
Now another tough and unpleasant question. I'm a kinda suspicious bastard and sometimes wonder about certain conclusions which can be drawn if one looks at a situation in a pessimistic way. So... There's a kind of timeline that I have in my head which may or may not be accurate because there are plenty of factors I don't and can't see- which may be the problem. I sign up for Fauna and get to "know" Crusader for Justice and the American Way Rich. A man who knew right from wrong and stood up for it. He stuck around for years right through Crusader for Justice versus Evil Empire where the tyrranical overlord ruling with an iron fist wasn't going to goosestep his way into freedomtown. And it was settled out of court. For an undisclosed amount. Then Crusader for Justice Rich started a time share with that guy who had to ask if Fauna was worth it... The one that's considering charging for the BOI.
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The details of that settlement, of course, are private. But I will say this, however. Jeff and I felt it best to settle our differences for the sake of this industry as a whole. We had a face to face and I think we were both just bull headed and let the whole thing run way too long, way too far. Jeff gave a little, and I gave a little, and it was ended on that note. I have dropped the ball on this, because Jeff had prepared a public statement to the effect of this ending of the hostilities, and I just have not taken the time to fill in the blanks on my part of it. So no, THIS situation has nothing at all to do with that incident. As a matter of fact, if that incident were still ongoing, I would have felt it foolish for me to change much on this site at all until it had ended.
But I will say this. Maybe that incident opened my eyes up a little bit. It showed me that here are fights that I may still have to fight because of this site that would have me digging into my pockets ever deeper. That, of course, led to the logical conclusion that I really do not want to be placed in that position having to rely solely on the money I have coming in from elsewhere if there is that jeopardy hanging over my head from my having this site. Point blank: Do I really want to have to spend the money out of solely my own pocket if I am sued from someone because I refuse to remove a thread that is (in their opinion) defamatory to them? Well, why should I? Why should I have to make sure I have enough of my own money salted away to be able to weather something like that? There are a lot of other things I would much rather do with my own money, I think. So no, I am not willing to back up everyone else if they are not going to back me up as well.
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Originally Posted by Seamus Haley
I think I have expressed a time or two in the past... I love this site. It represents something bigger than itself and while not everyone may see it that way; I know I am not alone in this view. I've been a lot more confused lately about things I used to be sure about though and there are questions where they didn't used to exist. Here's another tough one... Why is the BOI the useful tool that it is? The answer is definitely not because it charges people who have already lost money on a bad transaction in order for them to go report it. The false login names have never *really* been a problem, anytime anyone tried anything signifigant with one of them (like defending themselves under an assumed name or causing fights) it has ALWAYS been found out. The whole... enough rope to climb out of the hole or enough rope to hang themselves line. Remember it? I do.
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Oh really? How do you know what goes on behind the scenes? How many threats myself and the moderators get? The number of times we have to scan IP addresses and chase down suspicions. That time is all for free too, right? We ALL enjoy receiving threats against us and our loved ones just so this site can be here, right? No, sorry, you really don't know simply because we don't advertise those things publicly. Nor should we.
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Originally Posted by Seamus Haley
So I got to thinking about site costs... they've been an issue lately that's been public. Hard to avoid the topic. The banner advertisers are lined up around the block and there's a waiting list (you really should add another banner slot or two by the way) I've been thinking about donations and bandwdith costs and server space and software upgrades. All that seems to come pretty close to balancing out. Maybe a little money in one direction or another but no signifigant new costs that were not met with additional revenue to keep it, if not profitable, at least not a more signifigant loss than it ever had been before. Except one. There's this unknown additional site related cost in the form of a lawsuit settlement. Is it a big cost? I have no concrete evidence of this but around the same time it was incurred I know I saw a lot more talk about how much it costs to operate Fauna. So I've got these nagging suspicions that lead to conclusions that I don't like.
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No. You are under a misconception. There was exactly ONE point back in June of this past year, I think, when I stopped taking banner ads in order to maintain a certain level of impressions for all of the advertisers currently displaying ads here. That ended sometime in July, I believe, and has never been repeated. So no, there is NO backlog of people on a waiting list to have their banner ads here.
Quite frankly, I will not discuss details of my expenditures, simply because that is private information. I would not discuss my SerpenCo business either with anyone, simply because it is not prudent to do so. When I worked as an employee, I learned pretty quickly that you just do not discuss your salary with anyone at all. It just is not something that is done.
And quite frankly, if someone feels that I need to make such an accounting and then develop a forumula where by I say I need X amount of dollars over and above my expenditures and that will be my "salary" for running this site, well forget it. That is not your place to demand that of me. If you believe that it is, then you are quite welcome to hit the road and go elsewhere, because our beliefs have now diverged dramatically.
As for the settlement question, again, those details are private. But I will tell you that no, there is nothing directly there financially that is playing a part in what I am now asking in relation to the membership fees. There were attorney's fees, of course, but they are water over the dam right now. However, as a side note, it did give me an idea of what to expect if I am involved in another lawsuit, so perhaps there was a slight influence in my line of thinking about what I am willing to offer this site from myself in the future.
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Originally Posted by Seamus Haley
At this point I'm kind of expecting to be told "None of your damn business." which would be a perfectly legitimate answer if it weren't for the fact that I am being asked for money (Money which I haven't given incidentally, boo at me now). So here comes the REALLY unpleasant question that probably will make me unwelcome here... Rich, how much did you pay to settle that thing? Did you also have to agree to non-disclosure of the specifics? Would you at least be able to tell me (and I guess others) if that settlement is a signifigant portion of the "cost to run fauna" that's being mentioned in all these donation drives and that prompted the user fee discussions? And honestly more importantly... is it a signifigant part of the stress that has caused the change in how you vocally approach site ownership? Would it be waaaaaay out of line to ask to see some specific numbers about server rental costs and banner ad revenue or just how much those donations have added up to... and maybe what the settlement amount was?
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No you are not being asked for money. You are being told that there is the possibility that you may have to pay a fee in order to utilize some functions of this site in the future. If it happens, you can choose to do so or not.
And you are asking mutually exclusive questions. If the agreement is subject to non-disclosure (which it is), then I cannot answer much about your questions concerning such agreement. But I will tell you, again, that this membership fee thing has nothing at all to do with that settlement.
And yes, you are way out of line asking to see those figures. If you feel you need to do so before participating in any program I run here that requires your paying a fee in order to do so, you are welcome to not participate and use that as the reason for your not doing so. But I do have to ask you, Seamus, simply because I just don't remember, but all of the years you have been on this site, exactly HOW MUCH have you donated here to help out? Ball park figure, now, because I don't expect you to remember exactly either. But if this site is as valuable and important as you have stated, tell me, what exactly have YOU done to help promote and support it from a financial perspective.
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Originally Posted by Seamus Haley
There might be a lot of little solutions to little problems. Stuff like multiple logins... that's an easy fix, you have this pool of thousands of registered users who would be happy to back you up with some moderation capabilities should you choose to allow them to. You just have to take your pick (Not me, never me... I'd be a bad moderator and it's NOT what I am suggesting) out of the contestants and get the one(s) who would moderate in the manner users have come to know and respect from your team. A fee isn't the way to solve *that* problem at all and it's... inappropriate... to suggest that it's a reason for considering such a drastic action.
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Maybe. But if I have said this once, I have said this HUNDREDS of times: I am not willing to just grab people willy-nilly and give them the authority to be moderators on this site. I have been around the circuit way too long to have ignored the fact that some sites have had severe problems caused by personality conflicts between their own moderators. I am EXTREMELY cautious about who I pick and when I pick them. MANY problems will be caused simply by having too many of them around to where they become obtrusive and intrusive. That is just not my way, and I am not about to change that. I would rather have NO moderators then too many of them, or some that would cause me more headaches in the long run. The people I have picked now are top notch, in my opinion, and I am proud to have them here. If I decide to add more, they will be of the same caliber.
As for your opinion of more moderators being an effective solution to multiple logons and such in an ex post facto fashion, rather then a fee based system to help weed them out at the entranceway, I just disagree. The former takes the time and effort of the moderators or myself to track them down and remove them. The latter nips it in the bud before it happens. This should be elementary logic.
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Originally Posted by Seamus Haley
It sounds kinda out of character for me to be asking this but really the one potentially unpleasant question I have to ask... Are you doing alright Rich? 'cause to a casual observer who knows you only through reputation and this site... You don't seem like you are so much. Which leads to a question that IS valid... and that is "Is fauna worth it at the cost of someone's health and general well being?" and that's a tough one to answer. Even tougher to answer in a public forum.
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Good question. Maybe I'm not sure of the answer myself. Perhaps I am looking for that answer and think that my suggestion is the pill I need for the cure. I really don't know. Will my finding some extra $$ in my pockets at the end of the year help make the burden easier to bear? I really can't answer that until I try it, I guess. But I do know, that the fact that I am doing this, and have been doing this, for nothing more then maybe break even is not going to go on forever. And anyone else who would say that they would be willing to do it is not dancing with reality or truthfullness.
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Originally Posted by Seamus Haley
So... with all that said... I am legitimately concerned even if it seems out of character for me to be so (Apparantly I have a kind of reputation) and I ask these things because I think the answers are important. If any answers are approached with the same attitude... It won't hurt and might just help a few things with all these confused and concerned (I'm not the only one, read those subscription threads) members. I may also have insulted someone. I do it accidently sometimes (and intentionally at others) so I'll apologize for that right now I guess... 'cause it's almost guaranteed that *someone* will read what I have written above the wrong way and want to punch me (hopefully not someone important). I suppose I should also express the idea that... maybe *maybe* this thread could avoid turning into a circus at least until after the people (person really, although there are a few mods who's honest input would be most welcome) who I was addressing get a chance to read it and decide if and how they want to respond?
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I've had thoughts that it will come to this point sooner or later for a long time. Matter of fact, it may even have been approached back during the "BOI version 1" long ago. It is only now that I really think it is feasible to implement because much of it can be done automatically without my manual intervention. Such a program in place where I would have to handle manually would have been an incredible nightmare. Certainly one that I would not take on, and didn't, simply because of that fact.
So to answer your question: Am I alright? Depends on how you define that word, I suppose. If it means that I think the way you want me to think, then no, I am not alright. If it means that I am this hypothetical "super hero" of herpdom that is willing to battle evil at all costs (out of my own pocket), put up with every bit of crap thrown his way and continue smiling about it, take threats of violence and lawsuits with a hearty laugh and a thunderous roar of defiance, and basically be this mythical person willing to do all of this out of my own pocket, giving up my own time, and putting in my own efforts, basically alone, then no, I am not "alright".
Sorry about any errors of punctuation and spelling in the above, but I have spent quite enough of my time on this, thank you, and am NOT going to proof read it.
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