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Go Back   FaunaClassifieds > Laws, Legislative Issues & Alerts > USA State Specific Issues


USA State Specific Issues Issues that are specific to a particular state, or subregion within a state, should be appended to the existing relevant thread. NEW threads cannot be created in this forum.

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Old 12-16-2003, 10:45 AM   #91
I am surprised that it took Wes that long to

respond, usually he quicker in putting his two cents in when ever I seem to post. But thats about the worth of his statements. Two cents.
What we are dealing here with is a permit violation, not a crime. More than likely it may even fall under an administrative code, certainly not the criminal code. Secondly, the fact that FW cited 3 individuals does not mean they are guilty. That is up to a judge. Its very conceivable that these citations could be thrown out of court as well. We will have to wait and see.
With regard to Wes indicating that it is your responsibility to follow these laws, it is not as simple as Wes implies. As a matter of fact some of these laws can be interpeted many different ways. We do not know until the matter comes before a magistrate whether FW even had the legal right to approach a vendor with the intention of entrapping him the way it was done.
Also, I am not my brothers keeper as mater of fact I was one of the vendors who did not have any reptiles to sell at that show, but I am concerned because I want to insure that people like yourself can enjoy the fruits of this field without fear that one day, you may have a problem yourself and at least you will know that these industry wide difficulties can only be dealt with when we work as group .

Finallly, Wes, if these regulations seem simple to you, and your answer is to just follow the rules and everything will be honky dorie, than your in for a big surprise. In many instances you can easily do the right thing and still be wrong. To a certain extant it even borders on " powers abused " . JERRY
Old 12-16-2003, 11:33 AM   #92
Darin Chappell
States are not at all prohibited from intererring with commerce. Congress has the Constitutional right to regulate interstate commerce, and Florida cannot all of a sudden decide not to do business with South Carolina, nor can Florida charge an import tax upon all products coming from Wyoming. However, Florida (and all States) have every right to determine what is legal to sell in within their own boundaries to a large extent.

Back in the days of the Blue Laws being on the books, I recall folks running over to the Kansas side of the State line so as to buy beer on Sundays, because it was illegal to sell the stuff in Missouri. Was that an interferrence of commerce? You bet it was, but was perfectly legal and Constitutional.

You may not like the way Florida has chosen to exercise her rights as a State in this issue. Even so, it is very dangerous, in my opinion, to suggest that she has no Constitutional right to do so.
Old 12-16-2003, 11:50 AM   #93
I am suggesting it. I am not afraid.
Old 12-16-2003, 12:05 PM   #94
Darin Chappell
Do you not see that such a step reduces power at the State level (which is closer to the power of the people) and increases power at the National level (thereby taking it further from the people)? Every time we have an encroachment of States' rights by the National government, we all lose a little bit of power in a very real way.

I'm sorry, but that sort of appeal to the National Constitution frightens me a great deal. I understand why you would want such a quick fix, but it appears to me to be a case of jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.
Old 12-16-2003, 12:06 PM   #95
OK, has anyone actually seen the ticket for the scarlet king senario? I personally saw the tickets for the hedgehogs and the out-of-state seller. But I saw/heard nothing about this scarlet king deal. Has anyone ACTUALLY SEEN IT, or can someone get the person involved to come on and post.

If they really did write for failure to check for a license, I seriously doubt it will hold up in court. Think about it, if they can really write tickets for that, they could just sit in any pet store and write tickets all day to every person that comes in and buys an animal and doesn't ask to see the store's permit. They could stand at any booth at the NRBE and write a ticket for everyone who buys something w/o asking.

Ray, your 3 animal thing is incorrect. We had Lt. Rick Brown at our herp meeting last week, and we spent several minutes questioning him on this issue. If you sell/trade/barter even one listed animal (any reptile) you must have a permit. Even if the animal is your pet and you are selling it to someone else so they can have a pet. You can give it away, but if you gain ANYTHING from the movement of the animal you need one.
Old 12-16-2003, 12:29 PM   #96
BRIAN, I know you were at the show

as I introduced myself to you. I would think if the buyer has a permit, I dont see whats so importantor illegal about the seller having one if he purchased the animal legally , lets say from a pet shop . This could very well have been the case with these FW people. We dont know what they said to the vendors, but we do know they were cited for not asking if the seller had a permit. The whole thing makes no legal sense at all. The more I look at this creative method for harrasing vendors, the more I begin to realize that maybe in this particular case, Lauren never had any difficulties with FW people. As a matter of fact, they never even went into her shows checking permits, etc. But the went to the trouble of sending in plainclothes FW and caught 3 vendors, one whom I understand is from Wisc and cited them. What a waste of time and manpower.
Old 12-16-2003, 12:32 PM   #97
just to clarify the above post

"I dont see whats so important or illegal about the seller NOT having a permit, if he purchased the animal legally. Lets say from a pet shop."
Old 12-16-2003, 12:44 PM   #98
Jerry, yes I remember you. I have no problem w/ the guy from Wisc. getting a ticket. If I have to pay for the license, so should he. I also, agree that I (the buyer) should not have check and see that every person I buy from has a license (that is FW's job), that's why I'm asking if anyone has actually seen the ticket. Sometimes these stories get twisted around, and I'm wondering what REALLY happened. I got the email from Lauren also, so I've seen what she wrote. But who knows how many times that story has been told. I'd really love to hear from the guy who actually got the ticket.
Old 12-16-2003, 12:48 PM   #99
"I dont see whats so important or illegal about the seller NOT having a permit, if he purchased the animal legally. Lets say from a pet shop."
That's just what the law says. If you sell an animal, you MUST have the permit required for that animal. They even respond to classifieds both in print and online media. Frankly, I have no problem w/ it. If I'm paying my $50 so should everyone else. I don't think a buyer should have to check permits though, that's a wee bit ridiculous.
Old 12-16-2003, 01:04 PM   #100
Python Dreams
I Agree With Wes...

Nothing is in black and white ever... I don't do shows, but from what I can tell it does seem that sometimes officers will come and enforce laws that they donot understand. That happens and hopefully it will be thrown out of court. But it seems kinda easy to me... Follow any law that you know about to the best of your ability and you should be o.k... Now that you know this information, donot buy from someone who doesn't have a permit. Simple.... Do I think it is stupid that you need a permit to sell your pet? Yes... But, now that I know this I would get a permit to sell my pet in Florida.. Big Deal.. I probably have this wrong, but from what I understand Scarlett Kings are native to Florida..(???) Why purchase a native speceis? Aren't these laws in place due to the fact that local reptile dealers would probably pillage their local area for any reptile they can sell? Aren't some of these laws also in place due to the fact that we cannot really police ourselves and alot of times their are vendors that are basically death dealers with dead reptiles in cages along with other mite and parasite ridden animals skinny and on deaths door.. Along with discusting importation practices which result in thousands upon thousands of dead reptiles yearly? I cannot imagine what would be going on if somebody did not check on us somewhat, because I still see conditions in Pet Stores and shows that are appaling and I feel should be prosecuted.. Could you imagine going to a Dog show or Store and having to point out dead puppies to the dealers???? I do feel that Jerry trying to warn people is a good thing though... We do have to look out for eachother and the more everyone knows about the laws, the better.
Thanks, Tom Baker

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