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USA State Specific Issues Issues that are specific to a particular state, or subregion within a state, should be appended to the existing relevant thread. NEW threads cannot be created in this forum.

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Old 12-16-2003, 01:15 PM   #101
KNOBTAIL
TOM, I can appreciate your

sentiments, but unless I am really off base here, it did not matter if it was a Scarlet or a Leopard gecko. The fact of the offer to purchase was enough to warrant a citation. Thats a different tune from buying something indeginous to the state of Fla.
 
Old 12-16-2003, 01:28 PM   #102
Rob @ RK Reptiles
Ok I talked to the person that got the ticket for the Scarlet. He was informed of this thread and should post on here to clarify things himself but from what I got from our conversation this is what happened.

Earlier this year a man approached Him at on of the West Palm Shows to see if he was interested in purchasing Scarlets. He said yes and they set up a meeting.

When they met he asked if the guy had his license to sell animals and the guy replied no. Supposedly he then told him I can not purchase them from you if you do not have your license but told him that if he gave the animals to him he would give him $25 to obtain his license so that next time there would be no problems with him purchasing from him and also offered him $15 for gas because it was supposedly a long drive to the meeting place.

Well then the same person showed up at the show this past Sat and approached the buyer again. He again asked did you get your license? HE replied no and the buyer said then I can not purchase form you without it.

Well From what was said to me supposedly when he told the UC during he first meeting me must have worded it incorrectly on why he was giving money to him and the conversations was recorded via a body wire. The UC issued him a citation for that prior incident at the show. Supposedly before he found out the person was a UC officer the UC officer was trying to see if anyone wanted to purchase "HOTS" without licenses.

Also after the citation was issued I guess he was told that the citation had no fine to pay but rather had to go to court over it but if he wanted to get rid of the citation he could let the UC officer know of anyone dealing in "HOTS" that was not licensed and he could inform them of anyone dealing in the illegal Indigo trade.

Now I can not guarantee any accuracy on this story but this is what was told to me by the receiver of the citation. I can see them trying to get information on anyone participating in the illegal trade of our Indigos but this seems a little excessive to go to all this trouble.
 
Old 12-16-2003, 01:31 PM   #103
Rob @ RK Reptiles
Tom,

The reasoning behind the License requirement is to ensure that the trade of animals is able to be monitored. It has nothing to do with protecting native or protected species. In this case they used Scarlet Kings as they knew this individual was interested in those animals. It could have been a Ball Python, a Leopard Gecko, a Reticulated Python, etc. etc.
 
Old 12-16-2003, 02:43 PM   #104
Wilomn
Gee Whiz guys, sure are a lot of short tempers out there.

Even I seriously doubt I could ever cram all the knowledge in my head that you have in yours. Mores the pity, eh? However, in the past when I did do shows that I needed a permit for there was a little rule or law book that came along with my permit that plainly stated what I could and could not do legally. Is this not standard anymore? It's been a few years since I did an out of state show so I don't know anymore.

And jerry here's a nickle for ya, I don't give a rat's patootie what you say or what you do in regards to where I post my opinion. You just happened to get my attention this time with the visual you gave of some guy running around like chicken little yelling the sky is falling the sky is falling, what with you and your flyers for everyone, making sure they all knew about the citations that were handed out.

I still stand behind the statement that it is up to each of us to know for ourselves what is legal and what is not wherever we do a show. Call the appropiate people, be it Fish and Game or Fish and Wildlife or whoever is in charge of the permits you have to have and ask them to send you the latest version of what they are enforcing. Doesn't seem like rocket science to me.

For the record I do not like the way this particular instance seems to have come down. Running around like a chicken with its head cut off won't do much good. Do the research you now know you need to do and you should be fine. Or ask even, he probably knows all the pertinant laws in all the states.

Wes Pollock
 
Old 12-16-2003, 05:02 PM   #105
KNOBTAIL
you see Wes, the problem is

you apparently have never dealt with Fish and Wildlife. I can tell you from very good experience and I am sure others can as well, that knowing the laws or what is expected from you when you get a permit does not fit into the reality of things when dealing with some of these people.

Many of these FW people have a real hard-on for reptile people. It does not matter if you are a good guy, have never had a problem, or whatever, for whatever reason they are out to get you, and they will find a way if they want to. I saw this many times at JFK when I was importing, but then it was the Federal FW.

I heard what happened to Tim Tytle and all the geckos he lost, and here was a situation where everything was done by the book, and yet he was targeted by FW. Most of the geckos were lost because they would not release the shipment even though all the paper work was proper. What does your little book say about that.

Their is no sense in calling FW and making sure that they send you the latest version on permits. Its ludicrous when someone stands in front of your booth with a uniform on and starts asking quesitons that do not even pertain to the permit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What does your little book say about that. !

Incidently, that is exactly what happened to me. I am not governed by FW regulations nor do I have a permit from them. I actually have nothing to do with them, but I am governed by the Dept. of Agriculture, and I have a permit from them. I can assure you , they approached my table and asked me for my permit. I told them, that they were not the issuing agency and that I would only show the permit to the DOA. He was not a happy officer, and he took my name, address and home # which I eagerly provided. I inturn took his shield # and name, and he then left. But I can assure you as I am writing this, if I ever do get a FW permit and run into this guy, he will make it a personal issue. No permit rules or little law books will help. You just have to be careful.
 
Old 12-16-2003, 08:12 PM   #106
Mike B.
If you really think all cops are pigs and they are out to get you, you have serious problems. Yes they might have slight ego's but when you're told day after day after day all the lies anyone could possibly come up with and deal with bad people who break the law all the time, your going to start assuming guilt and then ask questions to prove innocence. Also its not going to be an administrative code, it will be criminal code. More than likely its going to be about as bad as a speeding ticket fine, unless you are a repeat offender or were attempting to buy illegal animals, or if the judge just finds you extremely offensive when you're telling them your story.

There was a time right before my 18th birthday that I was out duck hunting and had 5 lead shot shells on me. I had no idea I had the shells on me, and hadnt used any other lead shot during that hunt. A FEDERAL officer stopped me and checked my gun for a plug, and also ran the magnet along the shells. Well the guy was a complete prick, he knew I had lead shot and didnt say anything, was then trying to get me to confess to shooting after hours, which we were not doing. Even made up a lie about talking to another group of hunters that said we were. Even though we watched him pull up from about 2 miles away. Threatened to take my gun, and alot of other crap. Anyway, I dont blame him for doing his job, I know lead shot is illegal and I had no problem getting a ticket for it. The lead shot law actually can fall under two different laws. One is illegally taking of animals (lesser poaching conviction) and one other something like illegal use of lead shot, which was the one I was charged with, basically a 50 dollar fine, wasnt a real big deal.

The point of that story is, Im assuming this law could fall under several different outcomes. The person who said he couldnt buy the snake obviously knew it was illegal yet still said ill give you 25 bucks to pay for the license, which in my opinion is a crappy way to circumvent the law. He knew he wasnt paying for the license, and that he was paying cheaply for the snakes, all to bend the rule.

Also most people who say cops are out to get them usually have had a bad run in with the law because they were BREAKING the law and thought the outcome was bullcrap even though they were doing something illegal. And then Now all cops are bad!
 
Old 12-16-2003, 08:17 PM   #107
Mike B.
Also, show some respect and you will get it in return. Its damn amazing the amount of cops ive worked with that all have said the exact same thing.

I dont have to show you my permit cause you arent the issuing agent? No wonder the cop took offense. Maybe you said it more politely than that but from what you posted it doesnt sound like it. The chip on your shoulder will only bite you in the butt.
 
Old 12-16-2003, 08:35 PM   #108
KNOBTAIL
MIKE, thanks for the post, but no one said

that cops were pigs, not in any thread or certainly not in any post that I wrote. Incidently the violation that I was referring to is just that, a violation not a crime. Also, I think your a bit confused about " cops are out to get them" No one said that either. What I did say was that fish and wildlife seem to have a hard-on for herp people. I have experienced that , not from my attitude, but from theirs.

Also, just to finish this thread, I am a retired Police officer, so Ive seen both sides of the coin. I know how to deal fairly with people, but in any profession, their are always over-zelous people who feel they can take whatever actions are necessary whether legal or not, and that is something we have to be very vigilant of. In this particular case my purpose for starting the thread was just to inform the herp community.
 
Old 12-16-2003, 09:05 PM   #109
Mike B.
Re: you see Wes, the problem is

Quote:
Originally posted by KNOBTAIL
Many of these FW people have a real hard-on for reptile people. It does not matter if you are a good guy, have never had a problem, or whatever, for whatever reason they are out to get you, and they will find a way if they want to. I saw this many times at JFK when I was importing, but then it was the Federal FW.
I dont think im confused and from that statement you seem to be implying that (hence the hard-on comment), and being a retired cop I would think you would be more understanding of this. But then again I dont remember every post written by you on this topic and maybe you've already talked about it., Im not trying to start an arguement, you obviously have a different view point than I do. But the guy broke the law and should be punished, regardless if its a 50 dollar fine, or a loss of his business license, whatever the law calls for. Like I said before, he knew the law, which he has no defense against, and should be punished.
 
Old 12-16-2003, 09:09 PM   #110
Mike B.
left something out

after the hard-on comment in my post, it should have said, I would have thought you being a retired police officer, that you would have more understanding on this subject (about the license etc) and not be more understanding of the hard on comment. that really didnt make much sense when I reread it.
 

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